Hattori clan. Why?

[edyzmedieval]

Add Uesugi in there as well, they didn't have Echigo for themselves.

I don't get what's the problem with Hattori. I for one can't wait to play with them since they're so insignificant compared to the big clans.

[Kagemusha]

Add Uesugi in there as well, they didn't have Echigo for themselves.

I don't get what's the problem with Hattori. I for one can't wait to play with them since they're so insignificant compared to the big clans.

Uesugi had maybe the most grazy history of all mentioned before. The late Uesugi who we identify with Uesugi Kenshin was more or less infact Nagao Clan who only adopted the Uesugi name from the last Yamanouchi Uesugi Lord who was forced to adopt his own vassal, then Nagao Kagetora because he was being so utterly defeated by the Late Hojo Clan. The new Nagao/ Uesugi inherited some of Yamanouchi Uesugi´s resources from Kozuke province, but mainly all they got from Uesugi proper was the name, prestige and the office of Kanto Kanrei, which had been held by Yamanouchi Uesugi for an bit.

The Uesugi Clan proper is far less known then the late Uesugi under Kenshin. Originally it was composed of three branch families, namely, Yamanouchi, Ogigayatsu and Inukake Uesugi branches. While during the Muromachi period as part of Ashikaga Shogunate these three families held provinces of Echigo,Kozuke, Musashi and Sagami, maiking it immensely powerful in theory.They were in constant state of civil war, which resulted the Inukake branch going extinct already before the Sengoku Jidai period started.
While the Uesugi branches were busy fighting themselves and the Ashikaga Shogunate for the rule of Kanto, the minor Imagawa vassal Ise Shinkuro, which revolting friendship already mentioned started his campaign to carve out a domain on the lands of Uesugi, mainly the Ogigayatsu at the start. He was successful in his attempts and while he never took the name his son Ujitsuna adopted the name Hojo. So the sengoku period Hojo was did not have any relations with the Old Hojo Clan who ruled the Kamakura Shogunate for a long time and defeated the Mongol invasions. Finally 1545 Hojo Ujiyasu the Grandson of Ise Shinkuro, posthumously named Hojo Soun, dealt decisive blow to the both existing brnaches of the Uesugi at the battle of Kawagoe. This battle ultimately also caused for Uesugi Norimasa, the leader of Yamanouchi Uesugi to seek shelter from his Nagao vassals of Echigo in 1551 after loosing more batles to the "new" Hojo Clan.

[TosaInu]

Replaying history often means that the player has to win certain missions: over and over again until he wins it and can move on to the next step.

The other approach is to present a starting point from history with all its possibilities and then wait what comes out of it. It doesn't matter whether you win or lose that known key battle (if it ever happens), there will be another day.

[Vlad The Impaler]

http://www.samurai-archives.com/maphome.html

I was looking to those maps and I see no Hattori clan. They played a minor role and featuring them in the game is like creating a Robin Hood clan in MTW2

I am not contesting that were humble origin samurais that become very powerful but if you look at the maps starting from 1525 you'll observe that most clans survived in a way or another. It's a strategy game, not a role play game. I am trying to say that even if the clans were lead by rulers that were not exactly rightful heirs but rose to power based on their own skill, this does not mean that it is a new clan. even Hideyoshi based his power on Oda remnants. Applying Revolting logic it would be absolutly normal to have an Akechi clan because he also has its chance to become a big daimyo.

There are only 9 playable factions and were chosen from ones that survived until late XVI century and were also constituted in a way or another at the start of the period.

I remember about the old Shogun and the battlefield ninja provoked a lot of discussions around here. Suddenly a clan with battlefield ninja seem appropriate. It would be much nicer to give to Koga and Iga a special feature that will enabling a recruitment of ninja, generals prone to ninja-like operations and so on than create a whole clan. Or you can recruit wandering ninja/ronins from Iga/Koga and make them retainers. It is just marketing, that's why I am a little annoyed. On this logic I would say to add an Ikko-Ikki clan or maybe two because monks also have their chance to gain power in medieval Japan. Also a imperial clan for variety.

It's a game about warlords and Hattori was just a retainer, he, his ancestors and his heirs.

Now back to Hattori, I think that more interesting will be to have a higher number of civil wars and enable to create clans lead by a powerful generals. For example, my daimyo is young and stupid but the clan has a high stats general. The young boy is doing a mistake. The established general/retainer is annoyed and decide to take over the clan. You can choose to back up the inept heir and prove that he is worthy or you can choose to back up the general/retainer. And so on.

What I am trying to say is that there are other priorities for creating a good game than just throw Japan's Robin Hood in the game and tell to buyers that wow they have the chance to be homo novus of Sengoku Era. There are other ways more subtle to re-create the atmosphere and add some role playing features to this game.

You don't get it.

Please don't bother yourself to give me history lessons. I am practicing ninjutsu and I am interested in Japan history since 1993 so make a count.

[Vlad The Impaler]

The other approach is to present a starting point from history with all its possibilities and then wait what comes out of it. It doesn't matter whether you win or lose that known key battle (if it ever happens), there will be another day.

I agree completley. Chosokabe, christian Shimazu or Mori can be the unifier of Japan or shogun. But a ninja clan?

[Kagemusha]

I agree completley. Chosokabe, christian Shimazu or Mori can be the unifier of Japan or shogun. But a ninja clan?

But Shimazu Clan was not Christian. ;) I agree that Hattori was rather obscure and never rose to anything other then being Tokugawa vassal, but maybe the problem here is similar to the naming convention of the agents.The faction is simply Hattori Clan because the name is somewhat known, while for example Iga Monto would be a better and more historically accurate name,which the faction is quite likely meant to represent in reality.

[Vlad The Impaler]

But Shimazu Clan was not Christian. ;)

Yeah, Otomo and Omura were christians, but I said like that thinking to the game and that the most southern clan is much more interested to convert to christianity than let's say Date or Uesugi due to commerce with christians.;)

[Revolting Friendship]

I was looking to those maps and I see no Hattori clan. They played a minor role...

Depending on what date you look at, all clans are minor at some point, retainers at some point. Just because a clan played a minor role historically doesn't mean that must be so in an alternate time-line. That's what these games are about, recreating history.

but if you look at the maps starting from 1525 you'll observe that most clans survived in a way or another.

Depends up to what point you're reffering to. Few of the names present on that map survived as daimyô past the unification, but it's true that most clans survived in some way.

It's a strategy game, not a role play game.

If I've understood CA correctly, it's going to be a little bit of both? And I certainly don't mind that.

this does not mean that it is a new clan. even Hideyoshi based his power on Oda remnants. Applying Revolting logic it would be absolutly normal to have an Akechi clan because he also has its chance to become a big daimyo.

No that's exactly what it does mean, and yes the game should work like that if it were to properly model the sengoku jidai. If they add at least one clan where one can preform the iconic sengoku act of gekokujô, I'm totally happy about that one oppertunity, and that's why I'm not gnashing my teeth over the addition of a "ninja-clan". I'd love for CA to pour in another 40 minor clans figuring as vassals and retainers of the bigger ones, because that would make Shogun 2 more Sengoku Jidai. Do you catch my drift? The problem isn't that they added 1 small clan, the problem is that they didn't add more.

It's a game about warlords and Hattori was just a retainer, he, his ancestors and his heirs.

And the most typical, outstanding and interesting sengoku-warlords were those who rose from obscurity and internal conflict and carved out a destiny for themselves. This is how I want to play this game, that's why this issue doesn't bother me.

Please don't bother yourself to give me history lessons. I am practicing ninjutsu and I am interested in Japan history since 1993 so make a count.

What matters is not what you do in your spare time but what arguments you bring to the table. I can't give heed to your knowledge if I feel your arguments are flawed. The reasons why Hattori shouldn't be added into the game isn't because they were a "ninja"-clan, or a small clan, or never were independent, the only reason if any should be that there are no other clans of similar stature represented, as a case of fairness to all the other smalltimers. I think this is kind of a silly reason, and as previously stated I'd rather have 1 than none, and if it's the black PJ-squad, fine. I don't care. I don't have to train shuriken-hurlers if I don't want to.