Europe and the Rest of the World - A Military Analysis

[gaelic cowboy]

Have you ever talked to or even seen a european soldier, or are you just basing this on some op-ed in a US newspaper.??

I have never heard of any recruitment problems in any Western European armies ever. Ireland has a microscopic army with a tiny budget but they never have a recruitment problem I ever heard of, usually the only way to get in is through a cadetship from university(officer programme). I think this idea that somehow people are incapable mentally of serving in an army is rubbish, if we had the money even more people would join cos we can be just as patriotic as you Vuk

The real problem for any military is money, how and where it is spent(in our case if we even have any), all of that impacts on training which affects the ability of the troops to fight but the potential recruits are prob still pretty much the same.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Have you ever talked to or even seen a european soldier, or are you just basing this on some op-ed in a US newspaper.??

I have never heard of any recruitment problems in any Western European armies ever. Ireland has a microscopic army with a tiny budget but they never have a recruitment problem I ever heard of, usually the only way to get in is through a cadetship from university(officer programme). I think this idea that somehow people are incapable mentally of serving in an army is rubbish, if we had the money even more people would join cos we can be just as patriotic as you Vuk

The real problem for any military is money, how and where it is spent(in our case if we even have any), all of that impacts on training which affects the ability of the troops to fight but the potential recruits are prob still pretty much the same.

The Irish produce some of the best soldiers in the world, and you fight like demons for the British Crown so I hate to think how you'd fight to defend Ireland.

Vuk is also wrong about the French military, it is operationally very good but badly used by its political masters.

I'm sorry Vuk, but what you are saying doesn't jive with anything I have EVER read about military power. The consensus I have always seen is that america is top dog because it has the best gear, but it has historically suffered from dicipline and moral problems.

Oh, you know who else make great soldiers?

The Swiss.

[Vuk]

The Irish produce some of the best soldiers in the world, and you fight like demons for the British Crown so I hate to think how you'd fight to defend Ireland.

Vuk is also wrong about the French military, it is operationally very good but badly used by its political masters.

I'm sorry Vuk, but what you are saying doesn't jive with anything I have EVER read about military power. The consensus I have always seen is that america is top dog because it has the best gear, but it has historically suffered from dicipline and moral problems.

Oh, you know who else make great soldiers?

The Swiss.

America has the best gear? Bollox! We cannot afford to equip our guys with the best gear. Germans, Belgians, etc have far better gear, and yet these countries still would fear US Marines. It is not the machine, but the operator.
You see, everything you are going after, tech, etc. is all very good, but it does not matter if it is given to the wrong people. Could you imagine if the US Marines were drawn mostly from New York and Mass? What a joke!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

America has the best gear? Bollox! We cannot afford to equip our guys with the best gear. Germans, Belgians, etc have far better gear, and yet these countries still would fear US Marines. It is not the machine, but the operator.
You see, everything you are going after, tech, etc. is all very good, but it does not matter if it is given to the wrong people. Could you imagine if the US Marines were drawn mostly from New York and Mass? What a joke!

Can't afford? Rubbish, your defence budget is higher in millions of dollars, Per Capita and GDP wise.

F-22 Raptor, able to target and engage even before they show up on enemy raidar.

Yanks get all the Guccii battlefield control tech, it's what gives you the ability to direct your soldiers. Everything else is pretty much on par, we all use the same basic infantry weapons, only Britain uses an individual tank gun... etc.

what does Germany have that is better than US gear?

[PanzerJaeger]

what does Germany have that is better than US gear?

The G36.

[Husar]

what does Germany have that is better than US gear?

We have better beer.

I'm not entirely sure but I think our vehicles also have better protection against mines and IEDs.

[Vuk]

Have you ever talked to or even seen a european soldier, or are you just basing this on some op-ed in a US newspaper.??

I have never heard of any recruitment problems in any Western European armies ever. Ireland has a microscopic army with a tiny budget but they never have a recruitment problem I ever heard of, usually the only way to get in is through a cadetship from university(officer programme). I think this idea that somehow people are incapable mentally of serving in an army is rubbish, if we had the money even more people would join cos we can be just as patriotic as you Vuk

The real problem for any military is money, how and where it is spent(in our case if we even have any), all of that impacts on training which affects the ability of the troops to fight but the potential recruits are prob still pretty much the same.

No, you are wrong. Money is only half the problem. First of all, when I am talking about Europe, I am not including the Britain or Ireland, as they are not (to the best of my knowledge) part of political or geographical Europe.
The only military (major military that is) in Europe with even close to the type of discipline that makes good soldiers is Germany, and they are still far, far off the mark. Good military discipline makes good citizens. Good citizens make good soldiers. I highly doubt that there are enough citizens in any major country in Europe that would allow that country to fight a sustained war. Right now their militaries are at a tiny standing level, and they are still rank with discipline problems. Even disregarding that, the non-military population also is not suited to wartime conditions (or willing to endure them).

Have I ever seen or talked to European soldiers? Yes, I have. I have friends in both the German military, and the Hungarian military. (I actually got to attend a seminar in Hungary by a guy who teaches Hungarian specialists hand-to-hand combat) I also know several people in Nato intelligence who have been to many military bases in Europe, and I have talked to them extensively.

[Sarmatian]

No, you are wrong. Money is only half the problem. First of all, when I am talking about Europe, I am not including the Britain or Ireland, as they are not (to the best of my knowledge) part of political or geographical Europe.

Britain and Ireland are both politically and geographically very much part of Europe... Europe stretches from Scandinavia to Bosphorus (north-south) and from Iceland to the Urals/Caucasus (west-east).

[Fragony]

Nothing wrong with European armies. I wonder how resiliant these socalled good citizens are when it's war comming to them, when a town is whiped from the map as retaliation or an entire village rounded up and executed because of militia activity. That terror also comes from your own army, good citizens killing their own, Europeans will expect that to happen.

[Greyblades]

Britain and Ireland are both politically and geographically very much part of Europe... Europe stretches from Scandinavia to Bosphorus (north-south) and from Iceland to the Urals/Caucasus (west-east).

Eh... I dont think that we see it like that. See "with europe but not of it" in tvtropes.

The nationalism which you so admire and reminisce for was and still is a cancer within Europe, and the weakening and gradual erosion of it is something which should be celebrated as one of the greatest foreign policy successes in the history of mankind, not mourned for causing the loss "of a culture that produces good citizens and good soldiers."

Eh I gotta disagree with this nationalism should not be removed but restricted, national pride shouldnt be shunned unless it results in violence or intolerance. I'm looking at you BNP.

As for vuk, now that I am rested and recharged this seems more like trolling against europeans than anything else.

[HoreTore]

I want to hug you, Subotan.

[Fisherking]

Vuk,

I think that you are the victim of a misperception, possibly born of American insulation from broader views of the world.

Much of Western Europe suppresses their patriotism and nationalism, seeing it as the cause of two world wars, particularly in Germany.

I wouldn’t want to say that their armies are of any less quality than that fielded by the US.

Yes, many of them are tiny but it is because they though they could get away with that as the US was covering their backs, to a great extent.

It is more a matter of governments than of individuals.

[Sarmatian]

Eh... I dont think that we see it like that. See "with europe but not of it" in tvtropes.

You can not ''see'' geography. A mountain is a mountain and a lake is lake. Deciding that mountain is a lake will not change reality. If people of Britain and Ireland see themselves as distinct and different than other Europeans, that's another issue. Vuk mentioned geography and politics, the former I already explained and the latter is easily proved by looking at how many European organizations Britain and Ireland are a part of from small and insignificant ones to CoE and EU.

and yet, britain as a society appears far more warlike in that it is 'happy' to engage in military 'adventures'.

Current circumstances, still doesn't change what I explained above.

[Greyblades]

Oh I know that, I just dont think most of us Brits see it that way.

[Furunculus]

Current circumstances, still doesn't change what I explained above.

fine, as long as you are not referring to the difference in broad cultural acceptance of military action between Britain and the continent, which is what i was referring to, because otherwise we disagree very significantly.

[Subotan]

Eh... I dont think that we see it like that. See "with europe but not of it" in tvtropes..

To paraphrase Porfirio Diaz, "Poor Britain, so far from Europe and so close to the United States"

Eh I gotta disagree with this nationalism should not be removed but restricted, national pride shouldnt be shunned unless it results in violence or intolerance. I'm looking at you BNP

Well, the kind of national pride easiest to do that with is the celebration of common values held by Britons, such as our history of democracy, tolerant nature, culture etc. It so happens that we share a lot of these values with Europeans. Blood and Soil nationalism is vile though.

I want to hug you, Subotan.

*Hug*

Could not agree more. I think what Vuk is underestimating is the still very much prevalent national pride. Just one reason that 'Project Europe' is a task that will stretch over many generations if it ever were to succeed fully. Of course, it is true that Europe does not concentrate on military might as it has done in the past. There is no need. There is no imminent threat. However, as soon as there were just such a threat, be assured, the Europeans would be up in arms in no time. We are, and always have been, a divided continent. Animosity towards others and fierce national pride does not disappear in just a few generatinos.

Quid

Remember of course that the kind of war Vuk declares that we would be crap at i.e. a full-scale industrial war between the great powers would almost certainly involve nuclear weapons, so there's not much of an incentive for anyone with the kind of power to threaten Europe to the degree that Vuk says that we can't resist to attack us.

[gaelic cowboy]

fine, as long as you are not referring to the difference in broad cultural acceptance of military action between Britain and the continent, which is what i was referring to, because otherwise we disagree very significantly.

I dont see it as clear cut as that, after all I bet certain states in US have different attitudes to the army too.

I think the difference is the political arena not on an individual scale, I mean lots of people marched against Iraq in the US and UK does that mean the people are soft mentally.

I dont buy this idea that certain people are bred for war, once you join you get trained and have to forget all your preconceptions blah blah cos whatever you think you know on joining the reality is they soon set you straight.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You can not ''see'' geography. A mountain is a mountain and a lake is lake. Deciding that mountain is a lake will not change reality. If people of Britain and Ireland see themselves as distinct and different than other Europeans, that's another issue. Vuk mentioned geography and politics, the former I already explained and the latter is easily proved by looking at how many European organizations Britain and Ireland are a part of from small and insignificant ones to CoE and EU.

Britain and Ireland are both island nations we have a fundamentally different way of viewing the world because every direction is "out there" never "over the border".

So we are not the same as mainland Europeans, no matter how many times you try to tell us we are.

[gaelic cowboy]

Britain and Ireland are both island nations we have a fundamentally different way of viewing the world because every direction is "out there" never "over the border".

So we are not the same as mainland Europeans, no matter how many times you try to tell us we are.

I agree we do both see the world differently but were still not going to let europe bang away without being involved.

After all this is Totalwar.org the way to win the early games like MTW or Rome was to ensure no one got too powerful in Europe if you were Britain.

[Furunculus]

Britain and Ireland are both politically and geographically very much part of Europe... Europe stretches from Scandinavia to Bosphorus (north-south) and from Iceland to the Urals/Caucasus (west-east).

and yet, britain as a society appears far more warlike in that it is 'happy' to engage in military 'adventures'.

[Fisherking]

and yet, britain as a society appears far more warlike in that it is 'happy' to engage in military 'adventures'.

Blame it on the Scotts

[Fragony]

and yet, britain as a society appears far more warlike in that it is 'happy' to engage in military 'adventures'.

The UK has more of a military culture, count the proverbs you casually use that can be traced back to things military (same for Americans). Likewise for us when it comes to trade and the sea.