Europe and the Rest of the World - A Military Analysis

[Hax]

Vuk, you are clearly forgetting that this is no longer the McCarthyist age. Shoving people away or kicking them out of the country just won't work anymore. Look at the possibilities we have, look at what's been happening in Egypt and Tunisia. The world isn't so black and white as we made it out to be half a millennium ago. Since you're not European, you clearly don't know what it's like to live over here. How many languages do you know, for starters? How many did you have to learn in school?

In the Netherlands, we learn four languages: Dutch, English, French and German. Those are obligatory. We have to continually deal with people here, we can't just bomb them, take the plane home, pat eachother on the back and say "well there's a job done good, Jethro, see ya at the pub at 8". The fact that we're surrounded by so many of our neighbours which have, throughout the hundreds of years declared war against eachother has led us to realise something: war is bad. Y'know, it's not because we're "weak" or "psychologically unfit for battle", it's because we have collectively murdered 6 million Jews, 20 million Russian civilians and soldiers and who knows how many others.

[Vuk]

Vuk, you are clearly forgetting that this is no longer the McCarthyist age. Shoving people away or kicking them out of the country just won't work anymore. Look at the possibilities we have, look at what's been happening in Egypt and Tunisia. The world isn't so black and white as we made it out to be half a millennium ago. Since you're not European, you clearly don't know what it's like to live over here. How many languages do you know, for starters? How many did you have to learn in school?

In the Netherlands, we learn four languages: Dutch, English, French and German. Those are obligatory. We have to continually deal with people here, we can't just bomb them, take the plane home, pat eachother on the back and say "well there's a job done good, Jethro, see ya at the pub at 8". The fact that we're surrounded by so many of our neighbours which have, throughout the hundreds of years declared war against eachother has led us to realise something: war is bad. Y'know, it's not because we're "weak" or "psychologically unfit for battle", it's because we have collectively murdered 6 million Jews, 20 million Russian civilians and soldiers and who knows how many others.

You have collectively murdered 6 mil Jews and 20 mil Rus civs? No, a guy named Hitler did, and the only guilt the rest of Europe should feel is that their countries were not ready for the threat. Seriously, quit it with the guilt stuff! How many Jews have you personally gassed Hax? How many did you support being gassed? How many did you allow to be gassed? How many did you want gassed? I guarantee you that the answer to all those questions is 0. You have no reason what so ever to feel guilty. Would you feel guilty if you have never in action or thought committed any sexual crime against anyone, but you found out that your grandfather was a rapist? Of course not, that was not your fault, it was out of your control, and you have no reason to feel guilty. Guilt is not healthy for anyone. Yes, you can look back on history and use it to avoid making mistakes, but to feel 'collective guilt' is plain BS.

I don't even know where to begin with the rest of your post... I will have to answer later, as I have research for my paper to do now.

[gaelic cowboy]

You have collectively murdered 6 mil Jews and 20 mil Rus civs? No, a guy named Hitler did,

Hitler personally killed six million people did he then ???? I think you might find that apart from WW1 he prob never killed anyone himself. Hitler did however preside over a vile regime with people who think war solves things, collective resposibility is a legitimate tack for the german people of the day because of the crimes committed against all humanity.

Having a society reject aggressive militarism is something to be cherished.

[Hax]

You have collectively murdered 6 mil Jews and 20 mil Rus civs? No, a guy named Hitler did, and the only guilt the rest of Europe should feel is that their countries were not ready for the threat. Seriously, quit it with the guilt stuff! How many Jews have you personally gassed Hax? How many did you support being gassed? How many did you allow to be gassed? How many did you want gassed? I guarantee you that the answer to all those questions is 0. You have no reason what so ever to feel guilty. Would you feel guilty if you have never in action or thought committed any sexual crime against anyone, but you found out that your grandfather was a rapist? Of course not, that was not your fault, it was out of your control, and you have no reason to feel guilty. Guilt is not healthy for anyone. Yes, you can look back on history and use it to avoid making mistakes, but to feel 'collective guilt' is plain BS.

No, I may have not had a personal hand in what Jew was killed, I may not have shot a Russian soldier, and I did not execute Sophie and Hans Scholl, however, since the advent of the industrial age, the concept of nationalism and the start of the colonisation, Europe had been poised for a large-scale conflict that would leave an imprint that would be felt for many generations. And no, guilt is not the right way to explain what we should feel, but I'd rather call it awareness. With everything we do, speaking in political terms, we should be aware of the effects nationalism had on Europe and how easy we all slipped into something that destroys the very essence of our humanity.

[Vuk]

Thing is, Vuk claimed we were gun shy, which surely cannot be the case if we have such a large military.

Being gun shy is not the absence of guns, but the unwillingness to use them. (see martial arts example)

I didn't say we'd all be wiped out, but I live in a city, what's the point in preparing to be a good soldier if I'm the first to die before we even know it's war anyway?

You wouldn't have to worry about that. Russia knows that if it attacks Europe it will have the US to worry about, so they would probably take out just a few European cities to scare the European populace, and then use the rest on America. They would be a scare tactic, but do very little real damage to the European war effort in the scheme of things. Also, Russia lacks good delivery systems, so with any type of missile defense system, they would probably be limited to only hitting cities on the borders.

Please explain how the readiness of countries outside of Europe prevents war inside Europe?
Why don't those ready countries prevent war in Africa?

Africa is not important enough to the US or Russia. Europe is important to Russia, and therefore it is important to America that Europe does not fall into Russian hands. (Europe is our foothold on the continent if you will) If an analogy would help, think of it like this: America and Russia are two big dogs, and Europe is the little scrap of meat that they fight over.

Except you claimed earlier that this readiness is the only way to get peace, yet they are still under attack from many paramilitary and terrorist groups from the neighboring countries. Such a threat doesn't really exist in Europe, the Netherlands aren't under a constant siege from their neighbors and nobody supports armed groups that keep bombing the dutch people.

Some times you need war to end war. Radical islam is a disease that eats away at the fabric of society, and it will not stop unless they are completely destroyed by allied powers...something that so far Americans and Euroswieners seem unwilling to do.

No, I may have not had a personal hand in what Jew was killed, I may not have shot a Russian soldier, and I did not execute Sophie and Hans Scholl, however, since the advent of the industrial age, the concept of nationalism and the start of the colonisation, Europe had been poised for a large-scale conflict that would leave an imprint that would be felt for many generations. And no, guilt is not the right way to explain what we should feel, but I'd rather call it awareness. With everything we do, speaking in political terms, we should be aware of the effects nationalism had on Europe and how easy we all slipped into something that destroys the very essence of our humanity.

Thus, YOU have not killed such and such people. Modern Europeans have not either. Definitely, look back on history to learn how to avoid mistakes, but don't take on the guilt of others was my point. Personally I think that you are looking back at history and coming to the wrong conclusions, but whatever.

Who cares about how the citizenry act in wars? Also, your comments suggesting that Europe is "gun-shy" are kinda blown to bits by the fact that we collectively have a larger army than you.

Not really. When I say gun-shy, I mean afraid to use a gun and ESP afraid to stand up against one, not to own one. Like in my martial arts analogy, I know people who have all the skills in the world, but who clam up when it comes to a fight, and then get the blood beaten out of them.

We could have controlled nationalism in Germany, had the nationalism unleashed by WWI been effectively kept in check by the LoN, and the countries had been linked together economically. Of course that's naturally a what-if scenario, but given it's success post-WWII, I have every reason to have faith that such a system would have prevented another continental war.

BS

This statement reveals that you don't actually know anything about the EU at all. The smaller and weaker members like the EU! Where is the exploitation you talk about? Is South Carolina going to secede all over again because it's "fed up" with being exploited by California and Texas?

Are you saying that France is not economically exploiting the rest of Europe then?


I repeat; who is going to invade our turf? Russia?

Maybe. How is this for a scenario. NK (north korea) goes to war with US. US goes to war with NK. China goes to war with US. Germany and Britain join US. Russia takes advantage of the situation and invades Poland. Germany declares war on Russia. France joins Russia. WWIII. Will it happen? I have no idea. It could though, and it is probably as likely to as to not. No one thought WWI was going to happen when it did. No one thought that WWII would either.

Ok sure, I was asking you to provide the unprovable. But militaristic societies are definitely more aggressive and more prone to starting wars - Japan is a good example of this. Used to be aggressive, started loads of wars, now is as pacifist as a monk, too pacifist even (Given that there is a crazy neighbour next door; a problem that does not exist in Europe.)

Being aggressive and being defensive are two different things that I think you have a hard time differentiating. Hitler was aggressive. The USSR was aggressive. Through most of its history the US has been defensive. In the last century Britain has been mostly defensive.

Are you trolling me? Or do you seriously believe that the peace in Europe is maintained through constant military suspicion of one another?

I never said that. Through the military readiness of the US and the USSR. Russia wanting the juicy scrap of meat that is Europe, and America trying to keep it out of Russia's hands. Military readiness is not the same as military suspicion BTW. Why do you deliberately use negative words like that?

That's such a completely ignorant and worthless opinion that it's not worth contesting. It is self-evidently wrong.

Someone is condescending. Actually Sub, I hate to break it to you, but the fairy tale of nuclear apocalypse is just that...a fairy tale. What good does it do Russia to nuke Europe into a desert? Nothing. Russia would only gain something by conquering and occupying Europe. Also, if there is non-lethal, but dangerous nuclear fall-out blowing everywhere, how would they move their own (limited) troops in to occupy Europe and mop up? Get real.

Believe? I know it.

Cause you teacha told ya so?

Hitler personally killed six million people did he then ???? I think you might find that apart from WW1 he prob never killed anyone himself. Hitler did however preside over a vile regime with people who think war solves things, collective resposibility is a legitimate tack for the german people of the day because of the crimes committed against all humanity.
Having a society reject aggressive militarism is something to be cherished.

I never said he directly killed him. What I said is that it was Hitler who killed them (indirectly as it were) generations ago, and the last three generations could not possibly be held responsible.
The problem is that there will always be people who think that war will get them what they want, and if everyone else is not willing to use their military against them, then they will be right. War DOES solve problems. It defeated Hitler, and if Europeans were not so gun-shy and passionate on avoiding war, they would have stopped Hitler before he became a threat. The pansy Europeans of that generation are responsible for every life lost in that war. Unfortunately lots of innocent Americans had to die to help a bunch of ungrateful European cowards clean up their own mess. No, I am not of course saying that the European military of that time were cowards (well, other than the Italian ones), but the politicians and cultural leaders were. They led the world into one of the worst wars ever with their cowardice.

[gaelic cowboy]

The problem is that there will always be people who think that war will get them what they want, and if everyone else is not willing to use their military against them, then they will be right. War DOES solve problems.

Think about what your saying here Vuk, you are trying to claim that a generic trait common to all people is specific to European people. Cooporatation is far more common to the human condition that you give credit for, I am glad I don't actually live in your imagined absolutist world.

It defeated Hitler, and if Europeans were not so gun-shy and passionate on avoiding war, they would have stopped Hitler before he became a threat. The pansy Europeans of that generation are responsible for every life lost in that war.

Amazing lack of either historical perspective or even just common sense here.

Unfortunately lots of innocent Americans had to die to help a bunch of ungrateful European cowards clean up their own mess.

No, I am not of course saying that the European military of that time were cowards (well, other than the Italian ones), but the politicians and cultural leaders were. They led the world into one of the worst wars ever with their cowardice.

I suppose it had nothing to do with the fact the depression had hit Europe badly and the various economies could not afford a war, most were not capable of mobilising early or properly enough for war cos they were economically weak. Also pretty much all the material I have ever read says that everyone believed the war was coming but each side was trying to delay till it would be advantageous for them.

You have a real John Wayne complex Vuk, A mans gotta do what mans gotta do and all that silly rubbish, you do realise the West was actually won by shopkeepers right.

Also I just realised 7 pages for a thread that pretty much was debunked on page one.

[Fragony]

Vuk is wrong about Europeans but going to defend him anyway, when you strip it it's about resolve, and that can be cultural. Take Japanese kamikazi's or jihadists, a point of no return a western won't soon cross. Why wouldn't there be a difference between the quite militarist USA and the more pacifist(oh so lol@that by the way) Europe

edit, and leaders were cowards, taking the Netherlands wasn't as fun as the Germans expected it to be it cost them dearly , but the leaders pretty much surrendered before the invasion

[gaelic cowboy]

Vuk is wrong about Europeans but going to defend him anyway, when you strip it it's about resolve, and that can be cultural. Take Japanese kamikazi's or jihadists, a point of no return a western won't soon cross. Why wouldn't there be a difference between the quite militarist USA and the more pacifist(oh so lol@that by the way) Europe

No it cannot be defended not in the terms that he see's it, plus kamikazi and jihadi tactics are born out of desperation not superior cultural mores.

Vuk see's european pacifism as basically suspect, just because people do not like the idea of messing about in foreign climes with young mens lives does not mean they will demand surrender upon invasion by mythical alien hordes.

[CBR]

Why wouldn't there be a difference between the quite militarist USA and the more pacifist(oh so lol@that by the way) Europe

Maybe there is a difference, but when one looks at say early 50's and mid/late 60's I would say Americans don't like long wars with no clear purpose. And why should they?

[Boohugh]

Take Japanese kamikazi's or jihadists, a point of no return a western won't soon cross.

It is unlikely the West will adopt those sort of suicide tactics no, but then we don't need to to achieve out tactical and strategic objectives. An incident just the other day proves that Western European soldiers are willing to get themselves killed if they think it will achieve other objectives (namely helping his mates).

I find is quite amusing and, at the same time, rather depressing that almost everyone in this thread has failed to acknowledge the work Western European soldiers are doing in Afghanistan. A friend of mine was pictured in the Daily Telegraph a couple of weeks ago because he was part of a bomb disposal team that defused a record number of IED's in 1 operation, but I guess he doesn't have any courage or fighting spirit to do that stuff because he's Western European, right?

Vuk, if you want to talk about the resolve of Western European soldiers just take a few minutes to think about all the ones that are giving their lives and performing heroic deeds every single day that you never hear about for what is, basically, a US war.

[Subotan]

Vuk, you are clearly forgetting that this is no longer the McCarthyist age. Shoving people away or kicking them out of the country just won't work anymore. Look at the possibilities we have, look at what's been happening in Egypt and Tunisia. The world isn't so black and white as we made it out to be half a millennium ago. Since you're not European, you clearly don't know what it's like to live over here. How many languages do you know, for starters? How many did you have to learn in school?

In the Netherlands, we learn four languages: Dutch, English, French and German. Those are obligatory. We have to continually deal with people here, we can't just bomb them, take the plane home, pat eachother on the back and say "well there's a job done good, Jethro, see ya at the pub at 8". The fact that we're surrounded by so many of our neighbours which have, throughout the hundreds of years declared war against eachother has led us to realise something: war is bad. Y'know, it's not because we're "weak" or "psychologically unfit for battle", it's because we have collectively murdered 6 million Jews, 20 million Russian civilians and soldiers and who knows how many others.

Hax rides to the intellectual rescue again!