[Council of Villains] A State of Corruption [Concluded]

[Winston Hughes]

Thanks to Chaotix for a brilliant game. The concept, the mechanics, the write-ups - everything was top class.

And congrats to all the heroes and survivalists for a great collective effort, leading to one of the most deserved and satisfying town victories I've seen in a long while.

[Seon]

Alright I will say it now.

CHAOTIIIiIiIiIIIiIIIIiIiIiIiIIiIIiIIiIIiIIiIiIIIiIII111111iiiiiix!!!!!!!!

[Diamondeye]

If I had doopliss powers, I would have been UNSTOPPABLE.

What was that stuff about classical getting revealed in the GE kill? I never saw any of that.

Like the csargo thing. But everyone knows better than to take that writeup stuff seriously.

Apparently not. But the worst part about it was that classical was our most important role since only he could recruit new members.

My defense of him may seem irrational, but I pondered for a long time if it was worth even standing up for him or just surrendering to the PIS of the update. In the end, I figured it was required of me to try and save my team's captain, which was why I was very vocal in-thread. As he was killed nonetheless and turned up Samus, this was basically what blew my (otherwise unpenetrable) cover and made a strong connection between me and him. I'm guessing that I could've skated on to the endgame if not for this episode, but Chaotix really sold out our team there. I knew it would come back and bite me eventually, and I was right. Especially you, Sasaki-san, you're always onto me!

Landlubber, you utterly pwned in this game. Thank you for revealing to me and accepting my notes and suggestions on who to protect. That was a good call.

Weren't I lucky to pick all these attack targets, first someone with outside protection, then Link, then Dane/Falcon/Chuck... Meh...

Thanks to Chaotix for a brilliant game. The concept, the mechanics, the write-ups - everything was top class.

And congrats to all the heroes and survivalists for a great collective effort, leading to one of the most deserved and satisfying town victories I've seen in a long while.

Yeah; Chaotix, thanks for the game, it was an exciting ride! Apart from the GE writeup, I agree with the above. It really was top class.

And congratulations to the town for a well-played game - It was a lot of fun even if we were eradicated. Especially you Seon, I loved destroying you with the Super Missile. And Sasaki

Also. Totally nailed peverchu several days before he hung

[Death is yonder]

Well thanks to Chaotix for an enjoyable game. Even though I had to bow out midway because of a 5 day school trip, it was certainly a very interesting read

And congrats to the other players, the mafia quicktopics were very interesting reads

[Diamondeye]

And congrats to the other players, the mafia quicktopics were very interesting reads

I'm not always that insane, I swear

[Askthepizzaguy]

I have the power to kill so I will need targets. I think it is allways good to remove skilled players, so my first target will be ATPG, since he needs to go. I also can corrupt two players to help do my bidding.

LOL didn't even do anything and right off the bat, Samus team wants me dead.

YOU GOT WHAT YOU DESERVE!!! *shakes fist*

[Diamondeye]

LOL didn't even do anything and right off the bat, Samus team wants me dead.

YOU GOT WHAT YOU DESERVE!!! *shakes fist*

Hey, we talked him out of it and you helped nuke Renata instead. So thanks.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Hey, we talked him out of it and you helped nuke Renata instead. So thanks.

The scums sure killed each other good this game.

As I told Beskar, an alliance with you guys was possible, but not when he wouldn't trust me with the truth. I broke pattern and tried to work with not one, but two mafia families in this game, and all I got was the cold shoulder from one and the denial, denial, denial from the other.

Townie team was the only one worth rooting for, really. They showed some cojones for allowing me to live even for a short while, before Sasaki scared em with all the doom and gloom predictions about me.

Oh yeah, baby. That's right. WHO DIDN'T MAKE UP THE TOWN-FRIENDLY SERIAL KILLER ROLE? That's right, PIZZA WAS TELLING THE TRUTH!

In your faces, Doubty Mcdoubtersons.

[Greyblades]

O RLY?

I'll challenge you on this.

Captain Falcon and Admiral Dane were never in the same place during a write-up.

Captain Falcon and Admiral Dane were both shown protecting people with the same force field ability in the write-ups.

With only slight variation, Falcon and Dane had the same speech pattern in every single lynch write-up.

It was mentioned several times in the write-ups that there were X number of players on board, but clearly X+1 characters alive.

Towards the end, I made a conscious effort to have both of them kill their enemies with roundhouse kicks- Chuck's signature attack.

And both characters have their own (admittedly obscure) line of Chuck Norris-esque meme jokes. And somewhat of a resemblance in terms of build.


So... was it unexpected? Yes. I intended it to be. Were the clues there for you to find them, throughout the whole game? Certainly. I didn't expect anyone to figure it out; I nearly died laughing when Fluffy of all people came as close as he did, with literally no other evidence except for "roundhouse kick". And he meant it as a joke.

-----------------------------------------------

On another note, I am writing up this massive thing of commentary that just keeps building up and I don't know where to end it. Expect that tonight.

Eh, by foreshadowing I meant I had no way of knowing that chuck norris even existed in this universe of nintendo/japanese game characters. Having Dane and captain falcon being the same person? Yeah that works. Having the same person being chuck? A real person? Not so much.

[Secura]

YOU GOT WHAT YOU DESERVE!!! *shakes fist*

I agree, cowardly tactic.

[classical_hero]

We are going to need a list of all the night actions so we can see what happened during the nights.

[Diamondeye]

I agree, cowardly tactic.

If we had gone through with it, maybe. ATPG is a legitimate concern when you're mafia (I should know!). And this time he was out to kill us as his first priority.

[Beskar]

LOL didn't even do anything and right off the bat, Samus team wants me dead.

YOU GOT WHAT YOU DESERVE!!! *shakes fist*

I agree with Pizza, but I would like to add another note. People who just target the best players in the game, only because they are 'good' are bad players. I always shake my head in disappointment when it always turns out people go "I know! lets roleblock/investigate/etc Pizza, Sasaki and Beskar!". If I am to do a night action, I do it with expressed reasoning. For example, Reenk was making out he had a good role, he wasn't one of the mafia, so he died. Similar thing happened with YLC. Sasaki was killed because we suspected TinCow's team was going to recruit him (which they were doing). These are pure gameplay reasons, you could swap the names with anyone from the player list, and insert them into that situation and it would be the same.

If we had gone through with it, maybe. ATPG is a legitimate concern when you're mafia (I should know!). And this time he was out to kill us as his first priority.

But where is the fun in it? You effectively ruining the game for a player who is investigated first round every game. Anyone who scans Pizza first round without a really good valid justification os being unsportmanship and a spoil-sport. Similar names are Sasaki, Myself and others who are constantly early game scanned.

I rather discover what Pizza is myself, have a battle of wits with him, then we duke it out. I managed to get Pizza's identity and got him singing to a tune for a while without any sort of night abilities and that is what Mafia should be about. Not abusing roles on the same couple of people because they are the 'best'.

[Beskar]

-removed-

[pevergreen]

But where is the fun in it? You effectively ruining the game for a player who is investigated first round every game. Anyone who scans Pizza first round without a valid justification os being unsportmanship and a spoil-sport.

I rather discover what Pizza is myself, have a battle of wits with him, then we duke it out. I managed to get Pizza's identity and got him singing to a tune for a while without any sort of night abilities and that is what Mafia should be about. Not abusing roles on the same couple of people because they are the 'best'.

Name something, and its been done to me.

I'm not consistantly targeted because I don't have the ability to sway the town's decisions. I can't make cases.

What I can do, and this game proves it, is be basically invisible. Sure I come up, but I'm never a threat, never a good lynch until right near the end.

Players like ATPG or Sasaki have the ability to reason out who is who. Thats dangerous. Is there something wrong with removing a known threat? No. But its not always a good idea to kill them. Then they are confirmed innocent.

Honour is flexible in mafia. Some play with it, some without it.

[Renata]

Reenk was making out he had a good role

That's how you took it? I was dead certain he was a survivalist after that gambit (and for some unknown reason, thought correctly IDFH). I'd never have killed him. He could have been so much fun.

As for people who get scanned too early too often ... TinCow, perhaps? :D

[Beskar]

Players like ATPG or Sasaki have the ability to reason out who is who. Thats dangerous. Is there something wrong with removing a known threat? No. But its not always a good idea to kill them. Then they are confirmed innocent.

So hypothetical example, Pizza signs up to a game, then Khazaar signs up and they are both mafia. Pizza gets roleblocked, investigated, and what else, but as Khazaar doesn't pay attention to the game, no one bothers with him. Khazaar reaches the end then wins because of not contributing, while Pizza posted the most in thread and loses.

That some how sounds like a creation of a boring game, a game where no one talks except odd votes because the town/mafia killed everyone who contributes and are a good player.

As for people who get scanned too early too often ... TinCow, perhaps? :D

That scan had nothing to do with me, but once I heard Diamondeyes reasoning behind it, I wasn't impressed with it. Then again, I never really seen TinCow scanned or first rounded that often, because it is always usually ATPG, Sasaki and myself. On that note, he scanned Sasaki... so...

[classical_hero]

One frustration I had was being on the wrong time zone since most of the action happened when I was asleep so many critical decision that could have been made were not made in time and oten I would miss out in getting them only when I woke up, s the night I attacked Seon, I would have changed it to GE, but that did not work out and the rest is history. We had some bad luck and some good luck, so we can't properly complain about things.

I just love this quote from Beskar in out QT about me chatting to ATPG, while he was actively trying to kill me in the game.

Going to Pizza is like doing the deal with the Devil. You will lose.

[Diamondeye]

I agree, Beskar. Profile-targetting can be very harsh on some people, and I often shy away from it as mafia (ie almost half of my games). But occassionally, you have to ascend above it. "He's Pizzaguy" is just a bad reason to leave him completely alone as it is to target him.

That's how you took it? I was dead certain he was a survivalist after that gambit (and for some unknown reason, thought correctly IDFH). I'd never have killed him. He could have been so much fun.

As for people who get scanned too early too often ... TinCow, perhaps? :D

What might have been a determining move in this game, my first-night scan of TinCow, was done out of utter respect and because I consider TC one of the very best players; My main reason to scan him was to see if we could recruit him (sort of why TC scanned Sasaki as well, I guess). What followed was the extreme consequences of an unexpected and lucky result.

I'm currently reading the Phazon QT, and I must say I'm still impressed by TC's effective code system. I almost wished I had sent him a PM so I could figure out how to effectively disguise my coded posts. I love secret stuff like that!

[pevergreen]

TC did some amazing work, it was a pity we never really got to use it.

TinCow.

[Beskar]

I agree, Beskar. Profile-targetting can be very harsh on some people, and I often shy away from it as mafia (ie almost half of my games). But occassionally, you have to ascend above it. "He's Pizzaguy" is just a bad reason to leave him completely alone as it is to target him.

Funnily enough, it doesn't. All it does is probably makes 1 person first round him, instead of 3. Giving a "grace" period of lets say.. 3 nights to Pizza, Sasaki, etc (unless it is really demanded from the game) would be fairer. Since it is to stop profile targeting and not legitimate targeting.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Meh, what I usually do if I have a night action and no reason to target anyone is to do it randomly on the first round.

If it hits someone like Tincow or Sasaki, those are the breaks. I'm not going to avoid targeting them just because they're them. That's the inverse and it's no more fair than doing it all the time. At the same time, I won't intentionally go after them right away just because they're who they are. But that's just how I play, and it's not the only way to play.

The worst thing that happens if I get targeted N1 every game by detectives/blockers/vig/mafia is that I'll get killed off early if I am townie; I won't be a suspect. Otherwise I'll be lynched right away because I'll be found out if I am guilty. So I'll just die early a lot; and then I'll just avoid games that are likely to have detectives in them. I hate detectives anyway. At least if I am a suspect I have a fighting chance at surviving for a bit.

It's a personal choice of how to play. If people want to target the usual suspects N1 in every game (I had a 7 or 8 game streak last year) that's their prerogative. Of course, if I happen to be a vigilante in one game and they should mysteriously vanish N1, that's my prerogative too. And then we'll both have tons of fun in games.

[johnhughthom]

We seem to have this discussion after pretty much every large game then the next one goes the same way. No, I don't know how to stop it.

TC did some amazing work

Again, happens every large game.

Thanks for hosting Chaotix, great game.

[pevergreen]

You're leaving a step out of it Beskar.

Lets say we all sign up to a game.

At game start, each player uses a new account to post in thread, eached named "mafia player x" x being a number from 1 - last player.

Obviously, without the names, the actions will be random. But once you can identify the people, their traits are the reason you target them.

If we take that further, and say that we don't know each other. Sure, you still can't target the person on purpose, but once you discover how they play, and how good they can be, then you are targetting them for a reason.

You're saying that they are being targetted for their name. They're being targetted for their potential.

Not saying it should be done, but there is hardly no reasoning for it.

[Diamondeye]

Completely jumping the shark:
pevergreen's post #273 in the QT. He so called this ending.

[Secura]

It's funny really, I remember saying these exact things during Noblesse Oblige, a year ago... and we're saying the same things now.

Some stuff just won't change, and the culture of fear and/or reverence of high-profile players is one of them.

[TinCow]

As I told Beskar, an alliance with you guys was possible, but not when he wouldn't trust me with the truth. I broke pattern and tried to work with not one, but two mafia families in this game, and all I got was the cold shoulder from one and the denial, denial, denial from the other.

Hey, not my fault you gave yourself away by contradicting your own abilities in your messages to me, plus telling pever the exact opposite of what you told me. We probably would have left you alone for a little while if you hadn't made your hostility to us so blatantly obvious.

[TinCow]

My main reason to scan him was to see if we could recruit him (sort of why TC scanned Sasaki as well, I guess).

Actually, I scanned Sasaki because I was trying to behave normally. I've only had an investigator role a couple times, and in one of those (Settlement) I scanned Sasaki early because I wanted to know I could trust his statements. So, I decided that the best consistency for me would be to do so again. I was targeting Sasaki in an attempt to make my strategy of hiding as a detective more believable, not because I wanted to know what he was. A fine line, sure, but that was my reasoning.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Hey, not my fault you gave yourself away by contradicting your own abilities in your messages to me, plus telling pever the exact opposite of what you told me. We probably would have left you alone for a little while if you hadn't made your hostility to us so blatantly obvious.

That is a fair cop. It's mostly on the Samus mafia team I direct this towards.

Although, as I was telling pevergreen, I should have nailed pever as well as Renata because of that. There was really no one else I told besides pever what the real deal about me was, except the dead and innocent YLC.

That was a close call for you guys, if I had cared a little more about finding all the mafia, and not just Samus/Dark Samus, I might have put those together.

[Diamondeye]

Why directing it at the Samus team? Me and Beskar had no animosity towards you and were fine with working with you as long as you served our purposes. Otherwise, keeping serial killers who have stated that their main target is your godfather alive is pretty bad play, no matter their name.