Say what?Originally Posted by Vuk
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
Say what?
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
So what do you want? Weigh index comparison? average height? Educational standards? Now if you would claim that USA has the best Navy in the world equipment wise, Answer would be easy yes, but no.You claim that one population of same cultural area is somehow inheritently superior to others. Nice word comes to mind ubermenchen. What exactly are you basing that idea, even more so when you have no military training yourself that certain Nation no matter of any factors reigns just supreme, because you say so? You discount history and statistics, also reality. In how many of the reacent wars European troops have been present? How many times they have fared more poor then anyone else, or in matter of fact any better? If you just decide that entire continent full of people have somehow mysteriosly lost their will to defend themselves, you really have to bring even one minor factual shred of evidence to the table.So please do so?
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
I already did talk about several in the other threads. For one, the (admitted) loathing of war and dangerously obsessive desire to avoid it held by so many Western Europeans. Right there you take motive and purpose away. In many ways, you get out of training what you put into it. How motivated are you? How serious are you about being the best? Can you be serious about being the best (and therefore work torward it) if you firmly believe that alliances and trade will make your role (a soldier) completely useless, and therefore your whole military is just a facade or some sort of bad joke?
Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.Vigilance is our shield, that protects us from our squalid past. Knowledge is our weapon, with which we carve a path to an enlightened future.
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Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
So if i ask you evidence you give me your own biased opinion based on hearsay, while a) you are not European. B) You havent served in military. Do you seriosly think that gungho attitude will make you a good soldier? That having nonsensensical romantic views concerning war and admiring it will make you a good soldier? You talk about loathing of war. Maybe you should compare which opponent is more dangerous.One who has romantic fantasies about war, or one who aknowledges that war is miserable strategy, but is still willing to wage that if needs to be.Ignorance does not make anyone better at anything.
You do know that all around the World there are lot of fanatics that are prepared to blow themselves up or kill anyone if ordered without much of a blink of an eye? If you place such people against well trained soldiers, all taunting in the world does not do them lot of good when they are moved down by people who use their training in order to stay alive and defeat their opponents.Maybe for example you would like to tell us how many countries of Europe have deployed to Afghanistan right now? Why are they there fighting alongside US troops if they are so demoralized they could not even defend their own homes? Strangely enough when you look at the statistics what happens when they get into firefights with Talibans and Mujahediin, these things become very one sided affairs while the Afghans might be one of the most warlike people in the world. You can only get far enough with self praise. It really doesnt matter how best you think you are when you walk in to the wrong line of sight of the enemy.
If you want to believe that you live in some sort of warrior culture without any peers, please do so, but if i were you i would keep such fantasies to myself as you dont clearly have anything to back up those romantic views of yours.
Last edited by Kagemusha; 02-01-2011 at 22:32.
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
Romantic views? I never said Americans didn't know that sucks, but I said they did know that it was sometimes necassary, and are more willing to protect themselves.
You obviously have not read my posts from the other threads...
Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.Vigilance is our shield, that protects us from our squalid past. Knowledge is our weapon, with which we carve a path to an enlightened future.
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Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
Just if anyone is interested I believe that the US marine would win, from what I know (admitedly little) the marines are between regular soldiers and navy seals when it comes to effectivness, to expect any footsoldier to win against someone that is only one step down from commando is a bit daft.
Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
Well didnt you just say in your last post that a negative aspect of European capacity to wage war is that its generally being loathed around Europe? Are you now trying to tell me that Americans suffer from the same problem? Or is it only problem if European suffers from it?
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
lol, you are missing my point entirely. Both Euros and Americans know that war stinks, but Americans also believe that it can be used to fix problems a lot more than Euros do. Do you know what I mean?Well didnt you just say in your last post that a negative aspect of European capacity to wage war is that its generally being loathed around Europe? Are you now trying to tell me that Americans suffer from the same problem? Or is it only problem if European suffers from it?
Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.Vigilance is our shield, that protects us from our squalid past. Knowledge is our weapon, with which we carve a path to an enlightened future.
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Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
So your saying that European soldiers would fare worse than american ones when fighting for a cause that isn't defending your country?
Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
And at this point please elaborate? First Gulf War,Iraq, Afghanistan or maybe some other modern conflict,please give us an example how Europeans have underperformed compared to US troops?
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
I will give you this...the US army stinks. My friend in the ROTC was telling me about how the men he was leading on a run refused to take their canteens because of the weight, and then almost dehydrated. Also, I have read reports about how their hand-to-hand and bayonet training has recently been cut because they need to spend so much time just getting them up to the level of human beings. (apparently many cannot even carry their gear at first)
The role of the Army in the US military is to come in after the Marines have done the work and then keep the peace. (or if they do see combat, to flee and leave the underequipped Marines their gear :D)
Seriously, I put no faith on the US Army regulars at all. America's land fighting force IS the Marines and other specialists. The Army is mostly just a joke. There was a proposed program a while ago called "Every Soldier a Marine". Unfortunately it did not get anywhere, but it is what the US needs.
Thankfully, between the Marine Corps, the Airforce, the Navy, and specialist subgroups, America has the potential to beat any single military on the planet.
Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.Vigilance is our shield, that protects us from our squalid past. Knowledge is our weapon, with which we carve a path to an enlightened future.
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Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
Actually, I never said that.
EDIT: Sorry if I seem dismissive, but I am working on a paper that I have to present tonight. I guess that I did not make myself clear when I put my initial argument forward, and assumed a lot of shared knowledge. I will post something fuller tonight/tomorrow when I have more time.
Last edited by Vuk; 02-01-2011 at 22:55.
Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.Vigilance is our shield, that protects us from our squalid past. Knowledge is our weapon, with which we carve a path to an enlightened future.
Everything you need to know about Kadagar_AV:
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
I always thought that the US army regulars were not seen as all that good because they were allways being outshone by the other parts of your military, kinda hard to compete when the rest of the millitary is obsessed with being "best of the best". I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't all that bad.
Last edited by Greyblades; 02-01-2011 at 22:56.
Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
So no in matter of fact the standard US infantry man doesnt fit your standards? So basically there arent any basic level infantry in Western hemisphere left worth their salt.This is just getting better and better.Im sure you just made many new friends, when the real problem is that your buddy should not call himself a NCO if he cant even control if his men are carrying drinking water or not.
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
THAT is what I mean!!
I know enough from training in martial arts to know that the guys who come in and really want to be the best and train the hardest and give more than everyone else DO become the best!
Marines DO want to be the best. SEALs want and need to be the best. Simply from the Americans I have known, the Euros I have know, the American military men I know, the Euro military men I know, I have seen a LOT more of that drive to be the best amongst the Americans. Also, I think certain aspects of American society (including that horrible American exceptionalism) really foster that competitive drive.
Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.Vigilance is our shield, that protects us from our squalid past. Knowledge is our weapon, with which we carve a path to an enlightened future.
Everything you need to know about Kadagar_AV:
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
Hardly. While U.S. Marines are exceptional, they really are a regular and sizable branch of the military. Despite the problems in the US Army, they are still probably at least on parr with Euro armies, AND they have the Marines to do their dirty work. :PSo no in matter of fact the standard US infantry man doesnt fit your standards? So basically there arent any basic level infantry in Western hemisphere left worth their salt.This is just getting better and better.
Don't get me wrong, not all soldiers are sub-parr, merely the majority of them. I have known and read/heard about many fine soldiers, but on the whole, they are a sorry bunch of buffoons.
Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.Vigilance is our shield, that protects us from our squalid past. Knowledge is our weapon, with which we carve a path to an enlightened future.
Everything you need to know about Kadagar_AV:
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
It's really not worth th e warning points, man. Nobody is taking him seriously.
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
So you have to be part of something to talk about it? Do you have to be a Nazi to discuss Nazism? And if I was in the military, I would be accussed by you of being biased. I guess you just cannot win.
Oh well, my part in this discussion is over then I guess.
Last edited by Vuk; 02-01-2011 at 23:31.
Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.Vigilance is our shield, that protects us from our squalid past. Knowledge is our weapon, with which we carve a path to an enlightened future.
Everything you need to know about Kadagar_AV:
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
“Let's put it like this, if you had to recruit people for your military, would you rather be recruiting Americans or Euros? If you had to have an identical number of either Euro or American military personnel guarding you with the same equipment, who would you choose? I think that I know the answer, and THAT is my point.”
I take the Euros of course.
Answer “a la Vuk”.
The US army was obliged to change the enlistment criteria (weight) in order to able to have enough recruits. They were obliged to give University grant as a reward in order to get individual able to think as apparently patriotism was not enough for young Americans.
In term of combat, I grant you that against an obsolete and demoralized enemy army (Irak), the US are great. Of course when it was question to attack the vastly superior Serbian Army (Serbia: around 8,000,000 inhabitants) on the ground… well, that was an other affair, the US having lost 2 Apache even without any fight. I pass on the 5 Serbian tanks destroyed by 2 months of intensive aerial bombardment and cruise missiles launched from far, the US Army succeeded in having 2 members captured. The US Government had to sent the Pastor Jessy Jackson to bring the kids back. Of course the US whined that it was unfair as the soldiers were captured near or perhaps in Macedonia, so it was off-limit.
Few F-16 down and one “invisible” bomber, thanks to the Russian Mediation and lies (e.g. integrity of the Serbian Territory was guaranty in the size-fire agreement) they didn’t have to fight on the ground against armed and determined enemies…
About the training, just for you to know, our training Centres are too hard for you poor cocooned soldiers. The poor guys had to WALK… A Platoon of US soldiers couldn’t finish a simple obstacle run on a maximum time allowed to a French or German Soldier in Treve (ok, they were MP, but).
Oh, yeah, your elite troops… Marines and Seals are ok, average, I met some, and they become friends so I can’t say bad things, but honestly, the average level of the US soldiers is poor. Negligent with their material, insubordinate, and not willing to take too much risks…
(Apologies to my US comrades in Arms, past and actual, but this guy goes on my nerves…)
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.
"I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
"You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
"Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
The answer is not to attack the US military.
Can you back up this statement any more than Vuk can back up his?
the average level of the US soldiers is poor. Negligent with their material, insubordinate, and not willing to take too much risks…
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
Apology hardly accepted. I don't understand the aim of this post. Is it a failed tongue-in-cheek impersonation of Vuk or just Brenus using the absurdity of this thread as a nice place to vent some harbored feelings?
Edit: I won't quote it in order to spare the mods the trouble of editing my post as well, but Centurion basically summed up my feelings towards the other thread's OP except he was a little less profane than what I had in mind.
Last edited by Proletariat; 02-02-2011 at 00:41.
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
This is the most constructive conversation I have ever read on the backroom. It was so good, that it made a baby thread from its locked mother.
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
Probably Europeans. Once Russia has joined the EU, definitely Europeans.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
And when you add to that that the SEALs are better and noone in the US cares about the second place, the Marines are just a huge failure, right?
Of course that's not my opinion, I'm just trying to look at things the american way.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
Why?
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
Relax. The internets are full of E tough people. Life's too short to let every E bicile get under you skin.
Besides, I am sure you yourself made a great soldier. So tough, in fact, that I bet it would have taken me at least twenty minutes of hard work to get you and the other girls of your régiment to polish my boots for me.
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
Teh European armies are invincible !!
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 02-02-2011 at 03:21.
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
The USMC has tougher training than the US army. They don't recruit as many and therefore can have higher standards. But I don't think one therefore can say "the US army stinks"
I don't understand this obsession with the (low) quality of citizens. The Western World can rely on having highly educated men and women, and the main difference in fighting power would be the level of training and quality/quantity of equipment.
And in what way are we to measure the willingness of a population to fight a long war? Look at polls for how popular the war in Afghanistan perhaps? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...in_Afghanistan
A quick look does not show a huge difference. So I guess Europe AND USA won't stand a chance against the über Russian bear or the even larger hordes of Chinese?
Or maybe some people are just living in another century and need to come back to reality. More fact and less truthiness please
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
I'm afraid that the NATO experience of working with the Americans is profoundly negative, generally they are seen as undiciplined and ill trained. That may not be true, but every soldier I have ever known basically said the same as Benus. I heard a lovely story about a US liggh infantry battallion being unable to keep up with a British mechanised one despite carrying 7lb less gear and a lighter rifle.Apology hardly accepted. I don't understand the aim of this post. Is it a failed tongue-in-cheek impersonation of Vuk or just Brenus using the absurdity of this thread as a nice place to vent some harbored feelings?
Edit: I won't quote it in order to spare the mods the trouble of editing my post as well, but Centurion basically summed up my feelings towards the other thread's OP except he was a little less profane than what I had in mind.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.
You shoulod really shut up now. Your original post was full of pretentious assumptions about out country vs a continent based on I assume your touristy travels there, during which you go so far to say that west And east coast americans are scumbags, as well as some midwesterners. You went so far as to say that Marines from New York are ineffective.
Then, in your classical style, you back pedal in the face of counter-arguments and say you did not mean England and Ireland in your Europe sucks thread. Later, you say you also did not mean Germany or Spain. Frakking wow, man.
Everything out of your mouth in that thread was presumptive, one-size-fits all drivel followed by changing your argument to fit the ever-decreasing scope of the intellectual paradigm. One does not need military experience to see that. You lost. Admit it. You are offensive.
Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!
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