Clean Feature #5 and #6

[samu]

heey,

some new stuff :)


http://blogs.sega.com/totalwar/2011/...-and-tokugawa/

[gollum]

Cool previews.

In the original game the Tokugawa were merged with the Imagawa, as they were too few clans. This was good for gameplay, but it did little justice to the very difficult position the clan started, caught in between the Oda and teh Imagawa. That tension ended with the monumental defeat of the Imagawa and the loss of their Daimyo, Yoshimoto in the battle of Okehazama where a vastly outnumbered but determined Nobunaga won a miracle vistory and Ieyasu as ally.

It's also nice to see the local infighting in Kyushu prortayed in the game. Historically, clans at one end of Japan were conscious of clans at the other end becoming too big due to the geagraphical shape of the country (very narrow and elongated) that meant a clan that started getting too big could eventually start steamrolling without anyone being able to do much about it. Hence, strategic alliances with far-off clans to keep the infighting were paramount.

[Gregoshi]

Thanks for posting this samu.

Interesting that both clans trace their ancestry back to the same person.

[samu]

hi,


nearly all clans try to trace their ancesrty back to one of the minamoto clans members. You could only become shogun if you are of Minamoto blood.

Oda Nobunaga was of Taira blood, so he could not become shogun. I hope i am remebmering right, but I think he didn't wants do be shogun.

[Kagemusha]

hi,


nearly all clans try to trace their ancesrty back to one of the minamoto clans members. You could only become shogun if you are of Minamoto blood.

Oda Nobunaga was of Taira blood, so he could not become shogun. I hope i am remebmering right, but I think he didn't wants do be shogun.

Yes samu is right.The vast majority of Samurai Clans traced their ancestry to Minamoto Clan or in other words "Genji" and only a person with "Genji" heritage could take the title of Sei Tai Shogun. Remainder of the Clans based their ancestry to Taira,Fujiwara and Tachibana Clans. There were also Clans with claims to more exotic heritage like Chinese and Korean nobility and Empeors of Japan, but most the Clans we know from Sengoku Jidai period claimed Minamoto heritage. Though it is completely different matter how many of the Clans had even a drop of Minamoto blood running in their vains as like many other warrior nobility the Samurai were no different in creating more glorious past for their Clans in order to gain prestige amongst their peers.

[gollum]

Nobunaga was never offered to become Shogun; he was offered by the Emperor to become kanrei - essentially vice Shogun under Ashikaga Yoshiaki, whom Nobunaga himself had restored in his position.

Yoshiaki was the last of the Ashikaga Shoguns, whose title reflected the prestige but not the actual power of the title. After the battle of Okehazama, in which the Imagawa march to Kyoto was stopped on its tracks by Nobunaga, Yoshiaki decided to ask him (Nobunaga) to restore him in power. Nobunaga was quick to see the opportunity and to make the most of it, as it essentially legitimized his moving in to Kyoto and taking over, including the support of the Imperial court and the (Kyoto based) nobility of the country.

After, he "re-instated" Yoshiaki, however, their relationship started turning sour, as it became abundantly clear to Yoshiaki, the Emperor and everyone else that Nobunaga intended to rule alone. His refusal of teh title of kanrei, was a political decision and was not related to anylineage issue; he was just waiting essentially to defeat all the other contesting clans by which point he would have done away with Yoshiaki and the Emperor, as Ieysau later on did when he became Shogun. Yoshiaki and the Emperor did get the "message" of Nobunaga's refusal and were not at all pleased.
http://www.samurai-archives.com/nobunaga.html#3

The person who had ancenctry problems was Nobunaga's able general of humble origins (from a peasant, ashigaru, family) Toyotomi (Hashiba) Hideyoshi. After the murder of Nobunaga by Michuhide, Hideyoshi defeated the murderer (as well as a few other contesting Oda generals) and took over the Oda clan and with it the rulership of Japan. He accepted the title of "Kampaku" ie imperial regent - essentially being Shogun in all but name due to the lineage issue.
http://www.samurai-archives.com/hideyoshi.html

Hideyoshi, left a son, Hideyori who could become Shogun through tracing noble lineage from him mother, Yodo-Gimi iirc. Hideyoshi left a council of the five most powerful Daimyos that would act as regents from his untimely death till his son would come of age. One of them was Ieyasu - the most powerful of the lot, who immediately after Hideyoshis death started political maneuvers to bring as many Daimyos to his side against the Hideysohi lineage. This building of tension led to the monumental battle of Shekigahara in which the Tokugawa gained victory and with it the Shogunate.

Hideyori and his mother still lived on however in Hideyoshi's stronghold, the Osaka castle, that became the hub of anti-Tokugawa factions that rallied around Hideyoshi's heir whom they saw as the ligitimate heir. This led to two more battles - essentially large-scale sieges of the Osaka castle. the second one was conclusive and Yodeyori and his mother commited suicide.

Hideyori by that time also had a young son, whom Ieysau personally order killed, making absolutely certain that there would be no more rallying point of a rivalling dynasty to his. This, as ruthless as it was, made lots of sense as in faudal japan loyalties were largely personal.

Politics and dynastic politics mattered a lot during the period and it would be nice to see that in the game.

[Kagemusha]

Nobunaga was never offered to become Shogun; he was offered by the Emperor to become kanrei - essentially vice Shogun under Ashikaga Yoshiaki, whom Nobunaga himself had restored in his position.

Yoshiaki was the last of the Ashikaga Shoguns, whose title reflected the prestige but not the actual power of the title. After the battle of Okehazama, in which the Imagawa march to Kyoto was stopped on its tracks by Nobunaga, Yoshiaki decided to ask him (Nobunaga) to restore him in power. Nobunaga was quick to see the opportunity and to make the most of it, as it essentially legitimized his moving in to Kyoto and taking over, including the support of the Imperial court and the (Kyoto based) nobility of the country.

After, he "re-instated" Yoshiaki, however, their relationship started turning sour, as it became abundantly clear to Yoshiaki, the Emperor and everyone else that Nobunaga intended to rule alone. His refusal of teh title of kanrei, was a political decision and was not related to anylineage issue; he was just waiting essentially to defeat all the other contesting clans by which point he would have done away with Yoshiaki and the Emperor, as Ieysau later on did when he became Shogun. Yoshiaki and the Emperor did get the "message" of Nobunaga's refusal and were not at all pleased.
http://www.samurai-archives.com/nobunaga.html#3

The person who had ancenctry problems was Nobunaga's able general of humble origins (from a peasant, ashigaru, family) Toyotomi (Hashiba) Hideyoshi. After the murder of Nobunaga by Michuhide, Hideyoshi defeated the murderer (as well as a few other contesting Oda generals) and took over the Oda clan and with it the rulership of Japan. He accepted the title of "Kampaku" ie imperial regent - essentially being Shogun in all but name due to the lineage issue.
http://www.samurai-archives.com/hideyoshi.html

Hideyoshi, left a son, Hideyori who could become Shogun through tracing noble lineage from him mother, Yodo-Gimi iirc. Hideyoshi left a council of the five most powerful Daimyos that would act as regents from his untimely death till his son would come of age. One of them was Ieyasu - the most powerful of the lot, who immediately after Hideyoshis death started political maneuvers to bring as many Daimyos to his side against the Hideysohi lineage. This building of tension led to the monumental battle of Shekigahara in which the Tokugawa gained victory and with it the Shogunate.

Hideyori and his mother still lived on however in Hideyoshi's stronghold, the Osaka castle, that became the hub of anti-Tokugawa factions that rallied around Hideyoshi's heir whom they saw as the ligitimate heir. This led to two more battles - essentially large-scale sieges of the Osaka castle. the second one was conclusive and Yodeyori and his mother commited suicide.

Hideyori by that time also had a young son, whom Ieysau personally order killed, making absolutely certain that there would be no more rallying point of a rivalling dynasty to his. This, as ruthless as it was, made lots of sense as in faudal japan loyalties were largely personal.

Politics and dynastic politics mattered a lot during the period and it would be nice to see that in the game.

Well if are talking about being Shogun.Nobunaga couldnt have taken that office with his Taira ancestry. It is completely different matter what his ambitions were.Because of Akechi Mitsuhides rebellion and killing of Nobunaga in Honnoji we will never know. For the same reason the original Hojo Clan who took the rule immediately after Minamoto no Yoritomo´s death ruled as shikken or regent because Shogun had to be of Minamoto blood. Hideyoshi solved that problem taking the office of Kampaku, which had been for long in the hands of the nobles.After battle of Sekigahara the Toyotomi were furious, when Tokugawa Ieasy appointed Kujō Kanetaka as Kampaku taking that office away from Toyotomi family, while creating his own Shogunate in Edo. Hideyori´s mother Yodo was from Asai Clan, which had no Genji blood as they claimed descent from Fujiwara.So Hideyori was eglible of being Kampaku, but not Shogun.In matter of fact many sources also claim that Ieasy had to work hard to fabricate a proper Genji lineage for his family as some of his ancestors had claimed very different lineages.