Gender Roles: Even More Spin-Off

[Rhyfelwyr]

There's only so much projectionism I can take...

Why you took my post as suggesting men should be wife-beaters I have no idea, anyway...

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert in this field, however this topic came up at a Uni class last term and from what I gather the 'environment-is-everything-and-prone-to-change' take might make you sound intellectual and what not, but it has in fact been discredited and has went out of fashion gradually since its heyday a few decades ago.

Nature v nurture again.

Boys should be more aggressive/assertive since its just the way they tend to be, if lesbians are raising them to act like their balls have been chopped off then somethings wrong somewhere...

[Sasaki Kojiro]

There's only so much projectionism I can take...

Why you took my post as suggesting men should be wife-beaters I have no idea, anyway...

I'm sorry rhyf, I really didn't. I meant the opposite, I pointed out that they use it differently because I thought you weren't using it that way. What pj's study found was that the boys were less aggressive in the less likely to be wife-beaters way. You have no objection to that.

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert in this field, however this topic came up at a Uni class last term and from what I gather the 'environment-is-everything-and-prone-to-change' take might make you sound intellectual and what not, but it has in fact been discredited and has went out of fashion gradually since its heyday a few decades ago.

There certainly are innate sex differences. But they are systematically exaggerated and not very interesting or significant. People who have an axe to grind talk more about the blank slate view being discredited than about the actual findings on differences

Boys should be more aggressive/assertive since its just the way they tend to be, if lesbians are raising them to act like their balls have been chopped off then somethings wrong somewhere...

No, that's why I pointed out the psychological use of aggression. Lesbians are raising them to be less violent. Not less assertive.

"In psychology, as well as other social and behavioral sciences, aggression (also called combativeness) refers to behavior between members of the same species that is intended to cause pain or harm."

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'm sorry rhyf, I really didn't. I meant the opposite, I pointed out that they use it differently because I thought you weren't using it that way. What pj's study found was that the boys were less aggressive in the less likely to be wife-beaters way. You have no objection to that.

In that case, apologies, it's confusing when psychologists use a different definition of a word than everyone else does.

There certainly are innate sex differences. But they are systematically exaggerated and not very interesting or significant. People who have an axe to grind talk more about the blank slate view being discredited than about the actual findings on differences

Your last observation does not sound very scientific.

Don't you think the strength differences between men and women (in general) are significant?

No, that's why I pointed out the psychological use of aggression. Lesbians are raising them to be less violent. Not less assertive.

"In psychology, as well as other social and behavioral sciences, aggression (also called combativeness) refers to behavior between members of the same species that is intended to cause pain or harm."

Even still, the combination of factors mentioned really just makes those boys sound unhealthy. I mean, I'm sexually repressed, but that's because I'm a relinutjob as Frags would say, these boys sound like they've been made eunuchs...

I just think its funny how some posters (not you Sasaki) have started throwing around words like traditional, natural, macho etc and projected them onto my arguments.

Anyway, I like kittens, even if I prefer dogs. In fact I even take insects out the house instead of killing them, what did they do to me? :/

[Sasaki Kojiro]

In that case, apologies, it's confusing when psychologists use a different definition of a word than everyone else does.

Yes, I think it's dumb. I recall an article where the lack of women in philosophy classes was being discussed, and the author suggested it was because women were less aggressive. But of course violence doesn't take place in philosophical debate...

Your last observation does not sound very scientific.

It is

Don't you think the strength differences between men and women (in general) are significant?

Statistically. But I'm not sure how you would approach the question of whether it's in general significant. What does that mean? But it's not a gender role thing anyway, so.

Even still, the combination of factors mentioned really just makes those boys sound unhealthy. I mean, I'm sexually repressed, but that's because I'm a relinutjob as Frags would say, these boys sound like they've been made eunuchs...

Not really, it sounds like a good description of what they call "well bred". Which probably goes hand in hand with the higher economic status of lesbian adopted families.

Anyway, I like kittens, even if I prefer dogs. In fact I even take insects out the house instead of killing them, what did they do to me? :/

And that doesn't make you a eunuch...

[Rhyfelwyr]

Statistically. But I'm not sure how you would approach the question of whether it's in general significant. What does that mean? But it's not a gender role thing anyway, so.

How can such a striking difference not be significant? Women would struggle in a lot of jobs in heavy industry, for example.

Plus it is very much tied to gender roles, we aren't the ancient Greeks, the body and the mind are connected, and the influence isn't all from the latter to the former.

There are also documented mental differences. Women having better spacial awareness is one. Men are also more prone to things like aspergers, it's been dubbed 'extreme male brain' by some, I'm a bit like that myself. These things have a big impact on personality etc.

Not really, it sounds like a good description of what they call "well bred". Which probably goes hand in hand with the higher economic status of lesbian adopted families.

I'm skeptical, especially when they found the impact on girls raised by lesbians was the opposite of what would considered to be making them "well bred".

And that doesn't make you a eunuch...

Not any more than not beating your wive makes you a eunuch. If people don't attack me I'm not going to attack them.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

How can such a striking difference not be significant? Women would struggle in a lot of jobs in heavy industry, for example.

So it's significant for heavy industry. But I still don't know what "in general" means here. I would guess that you're trying for some carry over effect--as in, the strength differences mean that we can say that men and women are significantly different, and so then in some other area not related to strength, we can say that they are different as well.

Plus it is very much tied to gender roles, we aren't the ancient Greeks, the body and the mind are connected, and the influence isn't all from the latter to the former.

Well you're last three statements are clearly true...

There are also documented mental differences. Women having better spacial awareness is one. Men are also more prone to things like aspergers, it's been dubbed 'extreme male brain' by some, I'm a bit like that myself. These things have a big impact on personality etc.

Simon baron cohen's research is terrible, like much research on sex differences. Like the research where they ask for self report on empathy and then take that as revealing of sex differences

I'm skeptical, especially when they found the impact on girls raised by lesbians was the opposite of what would considered to be making them "well bred".

but those traits for boys are what they are. Regardless of whether girls raised by lesbians are less likely to be devoutly christian (remember it's difference in averages).

[Centurion1]

i played with my easy bake until i was like 13, 2 of my favorite channels are the food channel and hgtv, my favorite store is williams sonoma, and i enjoy going to the ballet. my dad also enrolled me in boxing when i was 9, i played 4 yrs of varsity american football, im a bit of a masochist, and i want to join the army and am on a contracted path to doing so. i would like to imagine im pretty normal overall and a fine specimen of a man.

my father was born in the 1950's he does the laundry and the cooking. he was also a navy pilot for twenty years and still talks about the red threat.

gender roles are stupid and unnecessary. a boy is aggressive (which i am) whether he likes to play with a kitchen set or a bike. now are men naturally more aggressive than girls and less nurturing? probably too an extent but its hard to say how much environment has an effect there. my parents mostly bought me toys tailored to boys anyway.

i concur with drone though. boys should never cry unless for extreme circumstances. boys who cry in fact children who cry in general make me ill. stoicism ftw.

[Beskar]

but those traits for boys are what they are. Regardless of whether girls raised by lesbians are less likely to be devoutly christian (remember it's difference in averages).

But the fact Lesbians are less likely to be Christian (as they burn in the pits of hell), it is a clear demonstration of the social influences making an impact on the child.

[Rhyfelwyr]

.....and yet you yourself adhere to a functionalistic explanation, which was a thing of the 60's as well. 1860's, that is...

I believe the most up to date and sensible viewpoint is to admit that both biology and sociocultural aspects play their role, and probably reinforce each other.

So it's significant for heavy industry. But I still don't know what "in general" means here. I would guess that you're trying for some carry over effect--as in, the strength differences mean that we can say that men and women are significantly different, and so then in some other area not related to strength, we can say that they are different as well.

When I said "in general", I meant men are on the whole stronger than women. As in as a group, but not always on an individual basis.

Well you're last three statements are clearly true...

Yes.

Simon baron cohen's research is terrible, like much research on sex differences. Like the research where they ask for self report on empathy and then take that as revealing of sex differences

Self reports are actually very revealing, you made this same argument in a Frontroom thread recently, you don't have to be so rigid when it comes to these things, the real test isn't always in the question itself.

Plus, now who is dismissing scientific research? That males display more aspergers like charactertics would have been obvious without providing evidence, but when I do provided respected research, its "terrible" and just dismissed?

but those traits for boys are what they are. Regardless of whether girls raised by lesbians are less likely to be devoutly christian (remember it's difference in averages).

Well you've made the case that what I said was due to the influence of homosexual parents was infact due to the fact that homosexual parents happen to be better off. An issue of causation.

So when I show that homosexual parents have the opposite effect on girls associated with being brought up by parents that are well off, you dismiss it? If the parents homosexuality is a factor with the girls they raise, I think it is highly likely it will also influence the boys, and shows that the studies finding were not just due to a the conflation of homosexual/well off parents.