Civil War in Libya

[Viking]

Who cares? Free people tend to like one another. I imagine that our relationship with Egypt will get much better after their revolution, in spite of the popular expectations. A free middle east will be an economic powerhouse over time. Freedom to think, get an education and troubleshoot the problems that face humanity is essential to our progress as a species. Currently, too many potentially bright minds are oppressed and left stagnating in squalor all over the world.

Doesn't this stuff make you want to get on a flight and go over there to fight and protest with them? Like Orwell in the Spanish Civil War.

I am primarily concerned with what the alternatives to Gaddafi are - whether or not this will end with the birth of a new democracy. Cf. Banquo

[ICantSpellDawg]

It will result in a governemnt and a people that sees the power of unfettered global communication. That's all we could ever hope for.

I'm confused, we have no right or obligation to spread democracy, but we have a right and obligation to look after the interests of Israel? Why is that?

The idea that we are their tradition and theirs ours is based on my understanding of influence in personal relationships. Our friends are our tradition, wouldn't you say? This has nothing to do with direct blood relations, but rather ther inspiring amount of influence our contacts have on us specifically. As we begin to speak with those outside of our culture, our cultures merge and our tradition becomes shared. Go to any museum to see how this works. These boards show us how. A myriad of technological advancements are showing us how.

I hate sports, but there are Cowboy fans in the heart of Cowboy country.

[Idaho]

I am primarily concerned with what the alternatives to Gaddafi are - whether or not this will end with the birth of a new democracy. Cf. Banquo

You would prefer Gaddafi or someone similar because the alternative might be bad? Its hard to imagine how an alternative can be worse.

[ICantSpellDawg]

thank you. Before Turkmenbashi died and Saddam was executed, he and Kim jong il shared 2nd place for the most batcrap crazy national leader award. It would be like living in a nightmare.

[Rahwana]

It will result in a governemnt and a people that sees the power of unfettered global communication. That's all we could ever hope for.

I'm confused, we have no right or obligation to spread democracy, but we have a right and obligation to look after the interests of Israel? Why is that?

The idea that we are their tradition and theirs ours is based on my understanding of influence in personal relationships. Our friends are our tradition, wouldn't you say? This has nothing to do with direct blood relations, but rather ther inspiring amount of influence our contacts have on us specifically. As we begin to speak with those outside of our culture, our cultures merge and our tradition becomes shared. Go to any museum to see how this works. These boards show us how. A myriad of technological advancements are showing us how.

I hate sports, but there are Cowboy fans in the heart of Cowboy country.

I myself would say some western minds are behind that, these coincidences of protests must be somewhat orchestrated.

You would prefer Gaddafi or someone similar because the alternative might be bad? Its hard to imagine how an alternative can be worse.

yeah, replace me and you'll got plain taliban or somalia like condition in Libya

[Hax]

Update: Gaddafi's airforce is bombarding Tripoli. Several jet fighters have defected to Malta.

The ambassadors to the United Kingdom and Indonesia have resigned.

Update 2: Ambassador of the UK has not resigned, apparently. The ambassador of Bangladesh did confirm his resignation.

I myself would say some western minds are behind that, these coincidences of protests must be somewhat orchestrated.

Of course. Because The Muslim Brotherhood just loves the west.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Don't watch this or this if you don't want nightmares.

Keep these people in your prayers. It's time for a no-fly zone. Even out the playing field.

[Viking]

You would prefer Gaddafi or someone similar because the alternative might be bad? Its hard to imagine how an alternative can be worse.

You are assuming too much. I am interesting in finding out what the alternatives are - because if Gaddafi is forced to leave, I have at present not the slightest idea of what's going to follow. I like to know things - curiousity.

[ICantSpellDawg]

People are being eviscerated in the streets. Aircraft are incinerating large groups of people. At what point do we step in? Do we do nothing and let men, women and children be killed en-mass? Le tthe Libyan people sacrifice their blood and bodies to the cause of freedom? Can we at least do an emergency no-fly zone on short notice? We as in Europeans and Americans.

What does everyone think? Go to youtube and look at the most recent videos comign out. Heads on the floor, bodies disemboweled. Horrifying stuff, something needs to be done. They are fighting our common fight.

[rory_20_uk]

Sorry, UK is not the "world police" any more. Nasty imperials, eh? Let the locals take care of it - always better that way...

Any other countries want to get into that quagmire, feel free.

[Viking]

From the BBC live feed:

Further to Mr Dabashi's comments, Libya's team at the UN has called on the bloc to impose a no-fly zone over Tripoli, following reports that warplanes were being used against protesters there.

If there is a genuine split in the population on this issue, then I suppose the danger of intervention is that might discredit the people calling for change - they could be labeled traitors co-operating with foreign forces. But if there is no such genuine split, the Libyans could thank us in the future, even if they, or most of them, would oppose intervention at present.

EDIT: and of course I am having the extreme scenarios like outright butchering in mind. In general, it is indeed probably best to avoid pulling too many strings.

[Hax]

Benghazi declared independence, apparently calling themselves "The Islamic Emirate of Benghazi". Pre-Gaddafi flags are flown from the time of the 1951 - 1969 Kingdom of Libya.

[Rahwana]

this was obviously rebellion, not just peaceful demonstrations. And as legal government of Libya, Khaddafi had every rights to defend Libya's unity against rebellions.

well, westerners quickly point out muslim brotherhood, but who donate to Osama in 1980's? and we all know that westerners want destabilizations because Khaddafi is very critical with them

[Banquo's Ghost]

Let me remind members that whilst unpopular views are not excluded from the Backroom, deliberate attempts to provoke and troll will be.

[Rahwana]

ok, ok, I'm admit I'm a bit overdone that

but still, the things goes in Libya is no civilian demonstration, that was human wave tactics used as part of rebellions

[Banquo's Ghost]

I'm confused, we have no right or obligation to spread democracy, but we have a right and obligation to look after the interests of Israel? Why is that?

Just to be clear, I am not advocating that we look after the interests of Israel - just noting that our entire foreign policy in the region has been shaped to that end, and I see little evidence that will stop because of popular Arab uprisings.

As for your other calls for intervention, I entirely understand the sentiment and emotion, but it is not the West's job to police the wickedness of dictators - even if we could do so. This is a fight that belongs to the Libyan people.

It is a terrible choice, to be sure.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I hope that they can do it themselves quickly. The United States and the European Union have a responsibility to defend people from mass extermination if this goes on much longer. Reagan would do it, Clinton would do it, Bush would do it, Obama will do it if he needs to. Bank on it.

Libyans have already advocated for the UN to declare a no-fly zone. We are at a death toll of est 1000 with 10000 injured.

[Hax]

well, westerners quickly point out muslim brotherhood, but who donate to Osama in 1980's? and we all know that westerners want destabilizations because Khaddafi is very critical with them

Ah, you're talking about the struggle of the Muhajideen against the Soviets? While it is correct that the CIA contributed (financially) to the struggle of the Muhajideen, they never got involved with Osama bin Laden.

[tibilicus]

The West's fear is staggering. Are we really afraid of some new Arab Caliphate as some would lead us to believe? So what if, in an unlikely scenario (my personal opinion anyway) some of the Arab nations turn to "extremist Islam"? So long as that's what the majority want, why should I care? Am I meant to believe that such new "extremist" nations would pose a threat to me in my Western citadel? If such new nations were hostile, would they threaten my way of life? The answer is no. Due to the security these days I doubt they could even attack the West seriously via terrorism.

Let's relax, there will be no new enemy from the Arab world which can threaten the West, the days of that conflict are long gone. The West, and for the most part its ideals has won out.

[HoreTore]

TV2, Norways second largest broadcaster, was at my family's house today to interview my sister and her boyfriend about the situation in Libya. He was interviewed on the phone yesterday, today it was a live interview including my sister and tomorrow he will appear on the morning show.

AWESOME.

Libya is shut in completely, and phone contact with family members living abroad(my sisters boyfriend) is about the only way to get news of whats happening out to the world.

Edit: oh, and for added lols: the reporters name was Khaddafi....

[Idaho]

I think its too soon to talk about intervention. Reports arent reliable at the moment.

As for this terror of Islamic states; we need to work out how to get along with them and they need to work out to get on with us. Both of us are going to be around for while.

[Boohugh]

The West's fear is staggering. Are we really afraid of some new Arab Caliphate as some would lead us to believe? So what if, in an unlikely scenario (my personal opinion anyway) some of the Arab nations turn to "extremist Islam"? So long as that's what the majority want, why should I care? Am I meant to believe that such new "extremist" nations would pose a threat to me in my Western citadel? If such new nations were hostile, would they threaten my way of life? The answer is no. Due to the security these days I doubt they could even attack the West seriously via terrorism.

Let's relax, there will be no new enemy from the Arab world which can threaten the West, the days of that conflict are long gone. The West, and for the most part its ideals has won out.

The West's fear is indeed staggering, but I personally don't believe it to be entirely unfounded. You are right that a wave of extremist Islamic states in that region would stuggle to pose any sort of military threat to us, but it isn't the threat of violence or conflict that we should be afraid of.

The simple fact is, in the world today, our way of life is intrinsically linked with stability all around the world. Wealth always has been, currently is, and always will be created on the basis of trading stability. If we want to preserve our way of life, we need to preserve that stability as much as possible. North Africa and the Middle East are important not just because of oil but also because a huge amount of trade passes through the region. Make no mistake, if that region of the world erupts into a series of hostile, unstable states (either to us or each other), it will have consequences for you and me sitting pretty in our Western citadel.

Edit: Just want to add I don't think military intervention is the best way to achieve this, far from it, but I also don't think a policy of sitting back and just saying "ooh, don't do that please" is the way ahead either.

[LeftEyeNine]

@ Mad Arab

Well first of all we can't exactly know what CIA may have done or not during that period. Recently, Turkish Ministry of Transport (the one I'm working in) was the target of questions as rumours of flights for the "abduction" of people by CIA to Guantanamo via Incirlik base were permitted. We may never know. I also do not trust any intelligence agency at all. What I feel for sure that the fanatic islamic uprising was fed by anyone anti-communist, based on the view to use anti-religion fundementals of communism as a means of countering it in those cultures.

Freedom is pricey. People have died in numbers and will be dying further. No union or country was neither powerfully peaceful nor was only interested in keeping the peace, regarding the sore truth about what happened to Bosnians during the post-Yugo years in the middle of Europe.

Sorry, you have to watch this. Innocent people are dying every moment; what is the difference between an innocent being killed in a burglary or a thousand innocent lives getting slaughtered ? Numbers define how much more important human life can be compared to another incident ?

Africa and Middle Asia is bathed in Western ways of meddling for centuries now.

Stop. We have seen how you could handle it the first moment it backfired on your homelands.

Stop. Let us die on lands WE live.

[Idaho]

The fear is from the small elite who currently profit hugely from oil. They fear that new popular governments will nationalise it to pay for the kinds of projects that should have begun 40 years ago.

[Strike For The South]

Well first of all we can't exactly know what CIA may have done or not during that period. Recently, the Ministry of Transport (the one I'm working in) was the target of questions as rumours of flights for the "abduction" of people by CIA to Guantanamo via Incirlik base were permitted. We may never know. I also do not trust any intelligence agency at all. What I feel for sure that the fanatic islamic uprising was fed by anyone anti-communist, based on the view to use anti-religion fundementals of communism as a means of countering it in those cultures.

Freedom is pricey. People have died in numbers and will be dying further. No union or country was neither powerfuly peacful nor was only interested in keeping the peace, regarding the sore truth about what happened to Bosnians during the post-Yugo years in the middle of Europe.

Sorry, you have to watch this. Innocent people are dying every moment; what is the difference between an innocent being killed in a burglary or a thousand innocent lives getting slaughtered ? Numbers define how much more important human life can be compared to another incident ?

Africa and Middle Asia is bathed in Western ways of meddling for centuries now.

Stop. We have seen how you could handle it the first moment it backfired on your homelands.

Stop. Let us die on lands WE live.

+1

I dont need to be bothered with a 3rd round of American blood

[HoreTore]

Jet Fighters ar reportedly on the way from Tripoli to Benghazi again for another bombing run.

[gaelic cowboy]

The West's fear is indeed staggering, but I personally don't believe it to be entirely unfounded. You are right that a wave of extremist Islamic states in that region would stuggle to pose any sort of military threat to us, but it isn't the threat of violence or conflict that we should be afraid of.

The simple fact is, in the world today, our way of life is intrinsically linked with stability all around the world. Wealth always has been, currently is, and always will be created on the basis of trading stability. If we want to preserve our way of life, we need to preserve that stability as much as possible. North Africa and the Middle East are important not just because of oil but also because a huge amount of trade passes through the region. Make no mistake, if that region of the world erupts into a series of hostile, unstable states (either to us or each other), it will have consequences for you and me sitting pretty in our Western citadel.

Edit: Just want to add I don't think military intervention is the best way to achieve this, far from it, but I also don't think a policy of sitting back and just saying "ooh, don't do that please" is the way ahead either.

Even if the entire Maghreb, Middle East and Central Asia tumbled into some kind of Caliphate the place would still struggle economically it would tumble in a few years too.

[HoreTore]

Even if the entire Maghreb, Middle East and Central Asia tumbled into some kind of Caliphate the place would still struggle economically it would tumble in a few years too.

Not to mention that all the states who are crumbling now are based on the idea of pan-arabic nationalism.... It's like saying we should keep the banana because if we lose it, we might end up with a banana.

[gaelic cowboy]

Not to mention that all the states who are crumbling now are based on the idea of pan-arabic nationalism.... It's like saying we should keep the banana because if we lose it, we might end up with a banana.

"Oh my god they may end up in islamic dictatorship" well big deal I say, if they do then Libya can just stay isolated simple as that, how would that be any differ to now.

[Strike For The South]

I guess all thats left to say is


NO WHAMMY NO WHAMMY NO WHAMMY NO WHAMMY NO WHAMMY