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Thread: New factions?

  1. #1711
    Guest Member Populus Romanus's Avatar
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    Default Re: New factions?

    One of the sources I saw said that it was 311 BC, and went on to say that it was commonly incorrectly dated to 312 BC.

  2. #1712
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: New factions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Populus Romanus View Post
    One of the sources I saw said that it was 311 BC, and went on to say that it was commonly incorrectly dated to 312 BC.
    Hmmm interesting. Could you forward me the source?

  3. #1713
    Guest Member Populus Romanus's Avatar
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    Default Re: New factions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moros View Post
    Hmmm interesting. Could you forward me the source?
    Ja/Oui. http://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/p...story_2007.pdf I hope this link works. Be warned: what I am talking about is a few pages down.

  4. #1714
    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    With the news (see Generals Preview) that the Averni and Aedui will have their starting territories reduced to just Gergovia and Bibracte, respectively has anyone ruled out a Cisalpine Gallic faction (most likely candidate in my opinion would be the Insubres) or will the Boii be used to fill this void?

    Also I am willing to bet my torque and chariot that the Suessiones (or some variation upon that tribe) will be a faction.
    Last edited by Ludens; 03-13-2011 at 11:13. Reason: merged posts



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  5. #1715

    Default Re: New factions?

    idk if the faction list is set in stone yet or what, but man do i really hope for a Syrakuse faction. Playing as them was probably my favorite part of RS, and taking them over or having a Syrakuse migration campaign is probably my favorite thing to do in EB.

    Starting with Hiero and Archimedes, a small fleet, and sandwiched in between Carthage, Epeiros and Rome would just be fun! I prefer their hoplites over any other hellen soldier

  6. #1716

    Default Re: New factions?

    personally i prefer the greek noble cavalry you can have a proper anvil and hammer tactics using them and most importantly you get bruttians in rhegion for the flanks (i prefer them over peltastai) and if you lucky you can visit the baleares and get some nice slingers and assault infantry making the syracusan state army probably one of the strongest one´s available

    playing as syracuse the biggest problem will undoutably be your finances and keeping an army in the field since you´ll end up at war with the romans and carthies and therefore lacking in trading partners altough if you play it smart you can probably milk the carthies for a few thousand mnais once you´ve taken lilabeo and then some more when you take sardinia and then corsica and then the baleares putting yourself up as the northern western mediterranean powerhouse (but trade can only take you so far)

    also for the navy are there any decent shipyards in the western mediterranean ?

  7. #1717
    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    Default Re: New factions?

    I'm fairly sure that Syracuse has been firmly ruled out.



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  8. #1718

    Default Re: New factions?

    I second that.
    "Who fights can lose, who doesn't fight has already lost."
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  9. #1719
    Member Member Horatius Flaccus's Avatar
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    Default Re: New factions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brennus View Post
    I'm fairly sure that Syracuse has been firmly ruled out.
    And I'm fairly sure it isn't. :)

    That said: I don't think they will be in (the first release).
    Last edited by Horatius Flaccus; 03-14-2011 at 14:28.
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  10. #1720

    Default Re: New factions?

    I don't see how many other factions could have that much priority over Syracuse. I mean they were clearly a big player in the mediterannean, and just for gameplay purposes i can't think of a more fun starting position and the obstacles that have to be overcome.

    You are competing for the master of trade in the Mare against Carthage, for Hellenic dominance against Epeiros, and just in general wary of the rising SPQR. Plus... Hiero and Archimedes!


    regardless of their faction-hood, will the Syracusan hoplites have a very unique skin here too? They are the coolest looking hoplite by far, that shield design and their color scheme is beautiful.
    Last edited by fomalhaut; 03-14-2011 at 23:53.

  11. #1721
    Guest Member Populus Romanus's Avatar
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    Default Re: New factions?

    Quote Originally Posted by fomalhaut View Post
    I don't see how many other factions could have that much priority over Syracuse. I mean they were clearly a big player in the mediterannean, and just for gameplay purposes i can't think of a more fun starting position and the obstacles that have to be overcome.

    You are competing for the master of trade in the Mare against Carthage, for Hellenic dominance against Epeiros, and just in general wary of the rising SPQR. Plus... Hiero and Archimedes!


    regardless of their faction-hood, will the Syracusan hoplites have a very unique skin here too? They are the coolest looking hoplite by far, that shield design and their color scheme is beautiful.
    They really were not that important at all. They only controlled a small portion of Sicily, and even with the Carthaginians spread extremely thin across Iberia, Africa, Sardinia, Corsica, and Sicily still could not manage to drive them off the island: the closest Carthage ever came to being driven off the island was at the hands of a certain Epirote whom we are all familiar with, and not by a Syracusan. They were more than willing to submit to Roman domination after just one battle against them in the First Punic War, which shows that they realized that their own strength was pitiful compared to that of the Romans (under any other circumstances, a tyrant like Hiero would have put up more of a fight, rather than condemn themselves to being forever second most important in their own city), and even to that of the Carthaginians. As for trade: they were insignificant. They were only as important in international commerce as Massilia, and Massilia has been conclusively ruled out. Anyways, I doubt a faction would be included because "they traded a bunch". This is a war game, not a money game.

  12. #1722
    urk! Member bobbin's Avatar
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    Default Re: New factions?

    Quote Originally Posted by fomalhaut View Post
    I don't see how many other factions could have that much priority over Syracuse. I mean they were clearly a big player in the mediterannean, and just for gameplay purposes i can't think of a more fun starting position and the obstacles that have to be overcome.

    You are competing for the master of trade in the Mare against Carthage, for Hellenic dominance against Epeiros, and just in general wary of the rising SPQR. Plus... Hiero and Archimedes!


    regardless of their faction-hood, will the Syracusan hoplites have a very unique skin here too? They are the coolest looking hoplite by far, that shield design and their color scheme is beautiful.


    Syracuse wasn't a big player in the Mediterranean by a long shot, throughout our timeframe they basically sat on their corner of Sicily switching allegiances between the bigger regional powers, who they didn't really have the strength to compete with on their own.

    This doesn't necessarily rule them out as a future faction mind you.
    Last edited by bobbin; 03-15-2011 at 01:03.


  13. #1723

    Default Re: New factions?

    This is a war game, not a money game.
    you wanted to say: not a TRADE game.
    "Who fights can lose, who doesn't fight has already lost."
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    "Durch diese hohle Gasse muss er kommen..."
    - Leonidas of Sparta

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    - Alaric the Visigoth

  14. #1724
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: New factions?

    Taking the recent events prior to EB's start date, and looking at the next 50 years or so, I wouldn't call Syracuse a minor dying Mediterranean faction...
    Considering the policy "create your history" within the limits of historical accuracy, that made me love and enjoy this mod, Syracuse just gained internal stability and had the chance to consolidate and expand its power...

  15. #1725

    Default Re: New factions?

    just because the inherent engine limitations prevent honest trading gameplay like EUIII, it doesn't rule out its significance in history. I play EB as a civ game with awesome fighting, not as a war game solely. I think EB tries very hard to add lots of things just to make the idea that your state is a trading powerhouse fun, like the towns renowned for certain crafts and the prevelance of special trade items on the map. Just seeing your little carriages going about is a cool way of showing that there are people going about their lives amidst your battles. gives your battles meaningful context

  16. #1726
    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
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    Default Re: New factions?

    As far as my understanding goes the criteria required for a faction to make the EBII list is that they must be expansionist (amongst other things). Syracuse, post 272BC was not expansionist, instead it was constantly on the defensive against first the Carthaginians and then the Romans. Although it was a major regional power (defying both Rome and Carthage and playing a major role in Pyrrhus war) it was not an international power. It remains to be seen whether or not the Syracusan state will be included within a newly restructured KH. Compared to other powers in existence at the time of the EBII timeframe (Pergamon, the Arevaci, the Marcommani, the Belgae, the Numidians, the Pritano/Catuvellaunii) Syracuse was not expansive or international in its influence. If Syracuse were to be included as a faction then Rhodes, the Aetolians, the Masallians, the Palmyrans and the Tarentines would also have to be considered as possible factions.
    Last edited by Brennus; 03-15-2011 at 06:07.



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  17. #1727
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: New factions?

    Agreed that the Greeks are very tough to represent...
    But Rhodes is already in the KH (most likely); Massalia had at best a garrison; Palmyra unfortunately emerged later on; Taras was garrisoned by retreating Epirotes I'd say...
    Aetolia is another difficult matter, maybe the best choice is having an expanded KH with internal divisions...

  18. #1728
    Member Member Epimetheus's Avatar
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    Default Re: New factions?

    We already have the Bosporan Kingdom, which, while being interesting, to my knowledge never played any role at all in any war ever, other than when they were annexed by Pontos. There would not have even been a first Punic War if Hiero hadn't tried to subjugate the Mamertines, and if he had succeeded, Rome probably would have supported him against Carthage.

    On the KH front, I'd actually prefer to see it focussed more on the Spartans, the Achaians, and the Aetolians, representing the three major Hellenic powers of our timeframe. Sure, Aetolia wasn't part of the Chremonidean league, but then neither was Rhodos, which was under Ptolemaic rule at the time. As for Athenai, it was hopelessly weak and mostly irrelevant at this point, and a resurgance of power, even among other Hellenes, was highly unlikely.

  19. #1729
    EBII Hod Carrier Member QuintusSertorius's Avatar
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    Default Re: New factions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Epimetheus View Post
    Sure, Aetolia wasn't part of the Chremonidean league, but then neither was Rhodos, which was under Ptolemaic rule at the time.
    No it wasn't. Rhodes was independent, or at least as independent as any poleis could be after Alexander. While it was allied to the Ptolemies, it wasn't ruled by them as Cyprus, for example, was. It didn't lose its nominal independence until it was annexed by Rome in 164BC.
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  20. #1730
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: New factions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brennus View Post
    As far as my understanding goes the criteria required for a faction to make the EBII list is that they must be expansionist (amongst other things).
    Expansionism was an important requirement for inclusion in EB1, but because of the increased faction-limit the team can stretch things a bit for EB2. The main problem with including Syracuse is the dearth of sources on their post-Alexandrian military. Although Syracuse was the greatest Greek city before (and arguably during) the rise of Athens, by EB's time-frame the city had been sacked repeatedly and was a mere shadow of its former power. The city would certainly have recovered if she had been left alone, but with three expansionist powers interested in Sicily (Carthage, Rome and Epiros under Phyrros) this was never going to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Epimetheus View Post
    We already have the Bosporan Kingdom, which, while being interesting, to my knowledge never played any role at all in any war ever, other than when they were annexed by Pontos.
    Given that the Bosporean kingdom was at the edge of the steppe, they must have had constant conflicts with nomadic warlords. That also accounts for the fact that you didn't hear about them: our history is Mediterranean-centred, so they were mostly ignored until they got into conflict with a Mediterranean power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Epimetheus View Post
    On the KH front, I'd actually prefer to see it focussed more on the Spartans, the Achaians, and the Aetolians, representing the three major Hellenic powers of our timeframe. Sure, Aetolia wasn't part of the Chremonidean league, but then neither was Rhodos, which was under Ptolemaic rule at the time. As for Athenai, it was hopelessly weak and mostly irrelevant at this point, and a resurgance of power, even among other Hellenes, was highly unlikely.
    I agree Athens was fairly weak at his point, but so was Sparta. Neither of them had the manpower and finances to take on the new Successor empires. That was part of the reason to combine them into one faction.

    Rhodos was included in the KH because it was Ptolemy's main ally in the theatre and given that he funded the KH Rhodos' involvement is a sure bet. I admit the case for the KH as a faction is fairly weak, but the team didn't pull it entirely out of the air. It's certainly stronger than that for an alliance between Sparta, Aetolia and Achaia. Also the Aetolian and Achaian leagues were defensive alliances. I am not sure if they could have embarked on a campaign of conquest even if they wanted to.
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  21. #1731
    Guest Member Populus Romanus's Avatar
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    Default Re: New factions?

    Indeed, there is no case for a Sparta-Aetolia-Achaea alliance. The Aetolians and Achaeans were mortal enemies, and the Spartans and Achaeans were mortal enemies. An alliance between the three would be like an alliance between the USA and the USSR during the height of the Cold War: it would never happen in a million years. Also, the Achaean League did not even exist yet at the start date. The Koinon Hellenon, however, actually works as a faction. Just because Athens was weak does not make it suddenly not allied to Sparta. They were both weak, but together they were a power that nearly drove the Macedonians out of Greece.

  22. #1732

    Default Re: New factions?

    Yeah, and just for gameplay purposes, its nice to have the 'Greek' faction, as opposed to other Hellenic based factions. It's fun as heck to play as KH, since for me i usually take distant coastal regions, make them colonies, and Hellenize them. It's a really interactive campaign, with the various rebellions and scripted scenarios as well as little things like the Spartan Agoge.

  23. #1733

    Default Re: New factions?

    Indeed, there is no case for a Sparta-Aetolia-Achaea alliance. The Aetolians and Achaeans were mortal enemies, and the Spartans and Achaeans were mortal enemies. An alliance between the three would be like an alliance between the USA and the USSR during the height of the Cold War: it would never happen in a million years. Also, the Achaean League did not even exist yet at the start date. The Koinon Hellenon, however, actually works as a faction. Just because Athens was weak does not make it suddenly not allied to Sparta. They were both weak, but together they were a power that nearly drove the Macedonians out of Greece.
    more like germany france and GB :D
    "Who fights can lose, who doesn't fight has already lost."
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    "Durch diese hohle Gasse muss er kommen..."
    - Leonidas of Sparta

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    - Alaric the Visigoth

  24. #1734
    EB on ALX player Member ziegenpeter's Avatar
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    Default Re: New factions?

    Quote Originally Posted by fomalhaut View Post
    Yeah, and just for gameplay purposes, its nice to have the 'Greek' faction, as opposed to other Hellenic based factions. It's fun as heck to play as KH, since for me i usually take distant coastal regions, make them colonies, and Hellenize them. It's a really interactive campaign, with the various rebellions and scripted scenarios as well as little things like the Spartan Agoge.
    I was always reluctant to start a KH campaign, but it turned out to be one of the coolest campaigns ever. You have so many regionals and so many different ennemies. I never pushed the Macs or Epeirotes out of greece but took the west of asia minor, sicily/southern italy, Kyrene, all the eastern islands and the crimean region. So you really can build a naval empire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Putt View Post
    more like germany france and GB :D
    You know, that they are really good allies, don't you?
    Last edited by ziegenpeter; 03-16-2011 at 13:37.

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  25. #1735

    Default Re: New factions?

    natürlich mein lieber Ziegenpeter,

    but all three were mortal enemies most of the time before the second world war and there is still a lot of petty nagging outside of politics, as you "probably" know.
    and as far as I know Sparta-Aetolia-Achaea are all members of modern Greece.

    the resemblance is just much better than USA and Russia.
    "Who fights can lose, who doesn't fight has already lost."
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    "Durch diese hohle Gasse muss er kommen..."
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  26. #1736
    EB on ALX player Member ziegenpeter's Avatar
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    Default Re: New factions?



    ;)

    EDIT: I just wanted to be a smart ass, since you never said you meant it historically

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  27. #1737

    Default Re: New factions?

    mein Gott ist jeder man hier Deutsch ? (Ich lerne immer noch, ich kann so gut wie ein Kind deutsch)

    but yeah ziegenpeter it really is cool! your campaign goes all sorts of directions, and for me as well did i not take upper Hellas, but rather expanded myself as a trading/coastal empire. I think everyone of my cities had a port, never went far inland. I loved having Emporion, Massila, Bosporan, Sinope, Rhodes, Syrakuse, etc. None connected by land but by a common culture and my dominant Navy :)

    I especially loved when a family member would be born outside of Hellas, they would be sent back to the homeland to participate in the Agoge, always accompanied by one unit of Spartiatai Hoplitai.

  28. #1738

    Default Re: New factions?

    anyone who loves greek history (like every historian out there) and can´t get the hang of phalanxs would be screwed in eb without the kh and therefore would probably refuse to play eb

    eb is great but a big group of people in here (2nd or 3rd biggest) wuv the kh expecially when you finally get the hang of it and when you feel ready you send your top diplomat to x region and get a free city and a new feel to the game

    my best moment in eb i must say was when my diplomat arrive in iberia to get a trade agreament and emporion wich was under carthaginian hands rebelled to me i sent my diplomat to arsé to try and make peace before a batle would happen and arsé rebels to me too and i was like wtf i went into debt but sure as hell it was fun the same for crimeia (sadly now it won´t happen with the bosphorans around)

  29. #1739
    mostly harmless Member B-Wing's Avatar
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    Default Re: New factions?

    Quote Originally Posted by moonburn View Post
    my best moment in eb i must say was when my diplomat arrive in iberia to get a trade agreament and emporion wich was under carthaginian hands rebelled to me i sent my diplomat to arsé to try and make peace before a batle would happen and arsé rebels to me too and i was like wtf i went into debt but sure as hell it was fun the same for crimeia (sadly now it won´t happen with the bosphorans around)
    Furthermore, in M2TW, rebelling cities always joint the Rebels faction. They can no longer rebel to another faction.

  30. #1740
    Guest Member Populus Romanus's Avatar
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    Default Re: New factions?

    Quote Originally Posted by B_Ray View Post
    Furthermore, in M2TW, rebelling cities always joint the Rebels faction. They can no longer rebel to another faction.
    I actually like that. That feature really annoyed me as Saba, forcing me into war with the Arche Seleukeia and Ptolemaioi before I was ready for it.

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