NY Times.... Getting worse and worse all the time

[rory_20_uk]

This is wrong, Rory. No means no. There is no point where a woman has become the slave of a man, for him to use however he desires, just for wearing a short skirt, or for being flirtatious, or for making out a bit. No always means no.

My example clearly was not merely wearing a skirt, or being flirtatious or making out a bit. I chose an extreme example, which you quoted and then appear to completely ignore. It was both the fact she was naked and the setting. After all, in the main women don't get raped on stage in strip clubs as again the situation is clearly defined. Is the line up until foreplay? Oral sex? The point of penetration - lie on the bed naked with legs splayed and then change one's mind? Or even during to decide it's not a great idea. Or better yet, would it be better to get the whole thing signed and dated beforehand to avoid misunderstandings?

You appear to wish for men to become the slave of women, to be required to turn their libido off at a moment's notice lest the woman suddenly changes her mind at any point.

Do I go around like a sexual predator getting close to the line of raping people? No.

Most sensible gun users lock their guns up. Why? Guns are for over 18s only, and should only be used by trained people. There is no reason why having them unlocked should in itself be a danger. But taking a sensible precaution helps everyone.

Am I saying that women can't look attractive and should all be covered head to toe in sack cloth just to be on the safe side? No, I merely think that being realistic is a good idea: in a world where messages can get mixed - especially between strangers and alcohol why not place responsibility on both parties to act in a sensible manner, rather than state that one party can do anything to tempt the other and the other is supposed to not react.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Is the line up until foreplay? Oral sex? The point of penetration

I'm saying that there is no line whatsoever. At no point does a woman's right to self-determination become subordinate to a man's libido. Mind, for example, that one can rape a woman after she had voluntary sex. One can rape a woman in a marriage.

There simply is no point whatsoever where one becomes entitled to do as one pleases with a woman. There is no point where a woman forfeits her right to physical integrity. That attitude belongs to the animals portrayed in this case. A man of twentyseven, who thinks he is entitled to rape an eleven year old girl because 'she wears adult make-up and she allowed the other seventeen men to have a go. Surely the ***** has no right to be so arrogant as to deny me what she allows those others? Am I not good enough for you? Spread 'em ******, too late to backtrack now.'

[rory_20_uk]

Yes, and I have never said that in any way I am defending gang raping an 11 year old regardless of the situation. I agree with your description that the individuals in this case are animals and I would personally execute them without a shred of remorse.

But a 20 year old woman who decides whilst drunk to have sex with 20 drunken blokes and then has second thoughts after 18... no, the other two shouldn't have a go, but it might have been better not to even start the process in the first place.

I disagree that there are no actions that a woman can undertake that do not cause her to share some degree of culpability, any more than driving a car at night with no lights on will mean that the driver of the car is partly culpable if hit by another car - even if following all the other rules of the road.

But then I am a pragmatist and I would take the position that when a woman (or a man) enters a situation where a conviction is unlikely due to the ambiguous situation if events proceed - then don't enter the situation: if being eyed up is the end of the world, avoid certain clothes - sorry I will look at attractive women who display their secondary sexual characteristics; if being groped is the end of the world, best avoid clubs and dance floors as it might happen either intentionally or unintentionally; if you don't want to have sex with someone better not go to a room a deux - it might be your "right" to be able to do so, but best not. I'd not go to a gay club wearing tight leather and get plastered as I don't want that sort of attention from other men (I might be flattering myself a tad here...) I'd not walk through Brixton using an expensive phone, with a gold Rolex on my wrist and my wallet on show. Yes, it is "my right" not to get mugged, but my actions are massively increasing the likelihood of it happening.