Middle-Earth campaign map?

[Raz]

never worked with the original modders, but from my perspective it was clear that they were really trying to push the mechanics of the game.

IIRC, the 8 trade goods are actually resources (you gotta make this distinction), resources determine what buildings can be constructed in the province via the build_prod. It makes for an excellent way of representing the distinctive cultures in the middle earth universe.

For example: suppose i want to limit the construction of elven buildings in the original elven regions, I'd make all elven buildings require say the "gold" resource, and then add that resource to the regions i want to limit the constructions to. Then it's a simple process of rename "gold" to "elven culture" (or whatever) and giving it a new icon. BANG easy construction limits based on a resources in the form of "culture".

Now as for their tech tree, it was a very, very rudimentary proof-of-concept work-in-progress. ;)
They'd built their building tree as a bit of a skeleton for each faction, they were pretty much carbon copies of each other. E.g. The men of gondor get a temple that gives a morale boost, so do the evil men - same building, same function, different name, different picture. (note this is an example, i can't actually remember if such a building existed)

It was very basic, very unpolished and they tried creating it far too rigid in my eyes. Everything was far too equal and balanced, if it was completed, i think the concept behind this ultra-rigid, carbon-copied skeleton would've made for no challenge playing as any faction. Each would've been too equal and samey. Not very interesting (at least with the tech-tree on the campaign map --- the actual units were quite diverse and very nice).

Zeal can further represent patriotism, faith can be a ratio/measurement of the cultures in the region, conflicting "religions" represent conflicting cultures and naturally disputes and uprisings/rebellions will occur. Too easy! :D

I recommend rebuilding the tech tree, but i liked the concept behind the resources and the intentions that they had for them, as my knowledge has it, no released mod has used a similar feature like this.

As you might've guessed, I for one am interested in this mod. Keep at it.

- Hope this post helps you both Stazi and huth.

[Stazi]

IIRC, the 8 trade goods are actually resources (you gotta make this distinction), resources determine what buildings can be constructed in the province via the build_prod. It makes for an excellent way of representing the distinctive cultures in the middle earth universe.

For example: suppose i want to limit the construction of elven buildings in the original elven regions, I'd make all elven buildings require say the "gold" resource, and then add that resource to the regions i want to limit the constructions to. Then it's a simple process of rename "gold" to "elven culture" (or whatever) and giving it a new icon. BANG easy construction limits based on a resources in the form of "culture".

Thanks for the info Raz!

I know the idea of limiting training area by resources but I'd like to know what they were thinking about goods e.g.:

SetTradableGoods:: ID_LANDREG_18 METWElvesCapital
SetTradableGoods:: ID_LANDREG_56 METWEreborCapital
SetTradableGoods:: ID_LANDREG_40 METWGondorCapital
SetTradableGoods:: ID_LANDREG_37 METWHaradCapital
SetTradableGoods:: ID_LANDREG_19 METWIsengardCapital
SetTradableGoods:: ID_LANDREG_54 METWMordorCapital
SetTradableGoods:: ID_LANDREG_23 METWOrcCapital
SetTradableGoods:: ID_LANDREG_26 METWRohanCapital

No other goods were specified. They made them this way only to increase the income from capitals? Maybe these goods were just signs of something else. It really bothers me. Can we use goods for something else than increase income?

Now as for their tech tree, it was a very, very rudimentary proof-of-concept work-in-progress. ;)
They'd built their building tree as a bit of a skeleton for each faction, they were pretty much carbon copies of each other. E.g. The men of gondor get a temple that gives a morale boost, so do the evil men - same building, same function, different name, different picture. (note this is an example, i can't actually remember if such a building existed)

It was very basic, very unpolished and they tried creating it far too rigid in my eyes. Everything was far too equal and balanced, if it was completed, i think the concept behind this ultra-rigid, carbon-copied skeleton would've made for no challenge playing as any faction. Each would've been too equal and samey. Not very interesting (at least with the tech-tree on the campaign map --- the actual units were quite diverse and very nice).

It looks exactly as you said. The units are great and that's why I started to think about the campaign. I didn't think too much about making new tech tree till now. So.. if you have any ideas how should it look like feel free to post.

Zeal can further represent patriotism, faith can be a ratio/measurement of the cultures in the region, conflicting "religions" represent conflicting cultures and naturally disputes and uprisings/rebellions will occur. Too easy! :D

Another good idea. thanks

Below some examples how the map looks at the current stage (TBFME map modified by huth). It still needs some improvements e.g. it's too dark and border lines are hardly visible. I think we'll make pixels near the border lines a little brighter. VI minimap is a placeholder until we'll be sure that main map is the final version. There are some known places made like the Malta or Rhodes in original MTW. Some of them are dead ends like Helm's Deep or Minas Tirith and some are passable like Khazad-dum or Lonely Mountain. They'll have their own siege and battle maps attached (like it was designed by METW team).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

TO EVERYONE:

If you like the idea of playing a mod such this, please, post some comments/ideas. We are fairly new to modding MTW and any type of help/feedback is welcomed.
Some issues i can think of:
- as you probably noticed English is not my native language. We'll surely need help with units', buildings' descriptions. Orcish and Elvish native speakers are wanted too
- we need Tolkien expert. Some related issues - lack of forenames, surnames (especially for Harad), heroes/famous kings for all factions, best timeframe for mod, etc.

[gollum]

Hello Stazi,
i'll try to contribute in this thread as time allows, but i can't do at the moment more than that (or more than the promise of that), due to other (non game) commitments.

The mod is a fine idea, and i really wish you good luck with it. Its tough and hard to mod, but also very satisfying, especially when its "done" (or nearly done because you always think that you could do something different)

keep it up and good luck :)

[Leith]

Hello, Stazi! I'm very interested in what you're doing. I am willing to help if needed but only after I'm done with my mod, which should be released in a little while. Meanwhile let me make the following comments:

1-The Rohan faction needs serious overhaul because its main strength, cavalrymen, die easily even to the lowly spear-armed goblins.
A- Solution: Increase the number of men from 40 to 60 or 80, whichever proves more effective through playtesting.
B- Solution: Decrease the anti-cavalry bonus that spear and pike-armed units have.
c- Solution: Create more infantry units for Rohan, especially an Axe or spear-armed unit (probably both) capable of holding the line while cavalrymen flank or charge from behind. Currently, the Rohan horsemen are supposed to break enemy formations headon, which they cannot do.

[Stazi]

Thanks for your offer. Let me know when you'll be ready.
And yes, you're right. Whole unit rooster needs to be tested. IMO Rohan should be like Golden Horde - 80% cavalry of all types: light, heavy,horse archers, javelineers. Infantry - only swordsmen/axemen and archers.

We are currently working on the new tech tree and campaign map pieces. As Raz said, the original tech tree was pretty boring - same buildings for all factions.
Some ideas being discussed:

• changing the factions' recruitment zones from provinces oriented to buildings oriented. Every faction has unique units' rooster. If a faction will be pushed away from their lands, this faction won't be able to build new units. I think, units should be restricted only by "faction association" and "building requirements" columns and these buildings should available everywhere around the map (at least for standard units).
  
  
• unique castles' strategic map icons. METW team made only 6 slightly different castle icons (3 good, 3 evil). We'd like to make one castle upgrades "line" for each faction. The problem is - when we make each castle line restricted to only one faction, it will be totally destroyed when province will be conquered by other faction. Building a castle from the ground every time a province changes the owner... it's not a good idea.
  The other idea is to give 3 levels of the same castle to each faction so we can have 5 factions with their own castles. There are 8 factions now so for example all 4 evil factions will have to share the same castle design.
  
  
• What you think of making a one man, kensai style, elite units for known heroes? It should be interesting to see Aragorn or Elrond fighting Nazgul.

If you know other solutions for the first two points, please, leave a comment.

[gollum]

Hello stazi,
regarding unit dependency, i would certainly make them building dependent only. It's an interesting idea to have unique tech trees for each faction, and so have to build your own infrastructure in every province to make it worthwhile in terms of recruitment to have troops from there.

As you say, i'd avoid teh area of recruitment system. It does not work well in TW because the AI is not aware of it, and that is made only worse by the fact that domination is the usual goal. I tried it for modding the medieval game, and the AI was hopeless with it. That was made worse and worse if you took its logic to the extreme.

So sticking to unique tech trees and building dependencies only is the best imo. I personally would avoid the unique tech trees because that means testing all factions with dufferent tech trees and tweak the dependencies to work - and that would be far far more difficult and time consuming with unique tech trees, even if they are culturally unique (ie you have 3-4). But its your mod and up to you - just wanted to make the point for your benefit. As a player of course, i'd love unique tech trees :)

[huth]

1-The Rohan faction needs serious overhaul because its main strength, cavalrymen, die easily even to the lowly spear-armed goblins.
A- Solution: Increase the number of men from 40 to 60 or 80, whichever proves more effective through playtesting.
B- Solution: Decrease the anti-cavalry bonus that spear and pike-armed units have.
c- Solution: Create more infantry units for Rohan, especially an Axe or spear-armed unit (probably both) capable of holding the line while cavalrymen flank or charge from behind. Currently, the Rohan horsemen are supposed to break enemy formations headon, which they cannot do.

I'm thinking A and B solutions are good. A, because as Rohan based mainly on cavalry, these units should be larger than in armies based on infantry. B - once I modded unit_prod for my campaign making cavalry stronger not by giving better stats, but by decreasing anti-cav bonus for all units other than cav, mostly to negative values. Of course it was very significant change, at last low-tier spearmen didn't hold like supermen against better cav...

[Dol Guldur]

Looks interesting. I've recently got the old metw files for RTW:BI up on TWC if they are of any use (they are open source now), but I have no knowledge as to whether the original metw files for mtw still exist. I'll ask Burns if I see him online. Encaitar disappeared some time ago...

FATW will be listing other Middle-earth mods on its site, so if you have a beta out this year I'll gladly include a link to it.

Best of luck!

[Stazi]

Thanks for your interest. I'll be very grateful if you add link to the RTW version of ME mod. I've tried to search but I found only early 0.7 beta. We can surely use some of the buildings' and units' descriptions, icons, banners, etc. Even info pics can be made from ingame units' screenshots.
I'll be even more grateful if you find someone who has the latest ME:TW files for MTW/VI. All I found is 0.71a version with beta campaign add-on.

I'll surely contact you when we'll have a beta ready. We've started few weeks ago so don't expect anything soon.