Most dominant infantry in Europe

[Lazy O]

Sorry but, no infantry (not even the elite phalanx) can stand up to 5 catas in wedge.

[Geticus]

Sorry but, no infantry (not even the elite phalanx) can stand up to 5 catas in wedge.

Sweboz pikemen (15 morale base) with +3 chevron, pike defensive bonus vs. cavalry, and a good general's morale bonus might.

Plus what is the cost of 5 cataphracts? Twenty 4 chevron Jugundiz cost less upkeep than 4 cataphracts, so in terms of infantry dominance, I am looking at overall cost effectiveness and ease of recruitment. Cataphracts are awesome in their way, but by 250 the Sweboz can start spamming full stacks based on huge numbers of silver chevron skirmishers. What in Europe can really withstand that? Depending on the opposition the rest of the army can vary, clubmen for AP vs. Romans, more archers vs. nomadic factions, but the Jugundiz are the primary unit, super cheap, plentiful, dominate any European cavalry and lethal on the flank. I'm just proposing that the Jugundiz skirmisher with temple of Tyr bonuses is the most overpowering infantry in Europe if used right, due above all to cost effectiveness. Against almost any army composition type I believe the 4 chevron Jugundiz will perform well, they almost always get positive kill/loss ratios. That is mainly what I look for in SP. The good infantry always cause more damage than they take. When I play Aedui almost nothing gets the better of my Northern Gallic Swordsmen after post-battle healing. Playing Casse no one ever outfights the Belgae Swordsmen. And everyone knows how lethal Thraikian peltasts are, especially with +2 or +3 chevrons. But strangely, Sweboz Jugundiz, ugly and inglorious as they are, are in that same group. Germanic spearmen are good too, but when I use the skirmishers right they are equal or sometimes even better due to all the havoc they wreak with their javelins. Almost no one in SP ever gets the better of the Sweboz youth. Their endurance is great, they almost always win in the skirmishing, they overpower all European cavalry, and then do nicely on the flanks when it comes to final battle in line. And it often doesn't go that far, many enemy armies can be routed with exquisite kill ratios just by proper skirmishing from the Jugundiz supported by archery showers.
So while cataphracts in a wedge should be able do dice up most anything, maybe even my elite Sweboz pikemen, in the macro is there anything more effective and formideable overall than Sweboz hordes based on 4 chevron Sweboz youth? Out of the six factions that I play extensively (Aedui, Arverni, Casse, Sweboz, Getai, KH) I don't think that any of them matches up well to the Sweboz youth hordes. As long as the Sweboz don't waste any money at all on cavalry they can build multiple full stacks with very high numbers all with 3/4 chevrons (4,000 on huge unit size). Maybe Makedon with its insane mining and trade economy can field armies that can compete, but I have my doubts because 4 chevron Jugundiz overpower European cavalry, including hetairoi, so easily. The main thing I see that *might* be able to match up well in the long term against Sweboz skirmisher-based hordes is Romans with Polybian principes spam and Lusotannan 3 chevron armies. But jugundiz vs. Luso ambushers, the jugundiz are cheaper man for man and at 4 chevrons have the higher morale so if anything I think the Sweboz have the edge.

Consider the stats of a 4 chevron Jugundiz (huge unit size)
200 units/188 upkeep
18 spear, 0.13 lethality
9 javelin, 1 lethality, 6 ammo, 55 range
19 defense (2 armor/3 shield/14 skill)
Morale excellent+ (4 chevrons)
very good stamina
fast moving
can hide in long grass

This is an extremely versatily, lethal, low cost unit. Can anything in Europe really hold up to these guys wave after wave?

[Lazy O]

Without reading the whole wall, what I concluded from teh first line is that you do not know about the wedge trick. For 5 cataprachts in wedge, might as well take out 10 whole armies of Jundiz or whatever pikes you have.

To elaborate on it; basically, one unit has to draw attention of the enemy army, which is not that hard to do,
when all the infantry is coming at you, use the catas in the flank like:

Attack the unit at the end of the line

!||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| <---------------------------------------Cataphracts

The cavalry will keep charging till it reaches the unit that was targeted. This will basically destroy anything and EVERYTHING in its path. Of course no human player is stupid enough to ignore those 5 catas but the AI is.

[fomalhaut]

Without reading the whole wall, what I concluded from teh first line is that you do not know about the wedge trick. For 5 cataprachts in wedge, might as well take out 10 whole armies of Jundiz or whatever pikes you have.

or knowing EB they might not decide to couch their spears if the enemy is in loose formation D:

[Lazy O]

AS I said before, unit does not stop charging till it reaches its destination NO MATTER WHAT

[fomalhaut]

too quick of an edit my friend

[Geticus]

Without reading the whole wall, what I concluded from teh first line is that you do not know about the wedge trick. For 5 cataprachts in wedge, might as well take out 10 whole armies of Jundiz or whatever pikes you have.

To elaborate on it; basically, one unit has to draw attention of the enemy army, which is not that hard to do,
when all the infantry is coming at you, use the catas in the flank like:

Attack the unit at the end of the line

!||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| <---------------------------------------Cataphracts

The cavalry will keep charging till it reaches the unit that was targeted. This will basically destroy anything and EVERYTHING in its path. Of course no human player is stupid enough to ignore those 5 catas but the AI is.

That is cool but your last sentence is the key, I'm thinking in the absolute sense which faction in Europe has the most dominant infantry unit. Played intelligently 4 chevron skirmisher-spearmen are the best buy in Europe. That's all I'm proposing and it gives the Sweboz a major macro advantage.

[Lazy O]

The 5 cataphracts was just in response to the post above mine. For all purposes of not having to play like ETW, I maintain Bataroas and Thorakitai as the most effective :)

[The_Blacksmith]

Cataphracts is quite good, but war is not a matter of weapons as much as money... idd say the The Celtic Naked spearmen are good when they are hiding... otherwise soft targets, celtic archers and slingers are really really good and my favourite the Bataroas!

i dont play as the Getai or the Swebi alot... allthough if i play ass getai i mostly use HA's and skirmishers

[fomalhaut]

my getai armies are almost completely Thracians and Illyrians, with the dacian phalanx as the line! its quite nice

[Cute Wolf]

Sorry but, no infantry (not even the elite phalanx) can stand up to 5 catas in wedge.

soo true

even non catass cavalry, as long as they have good charge, infantries won't survive a charge done by wedge formations ploughing their line...

well, unless 2HP Gaesatae if they aren't properly softened

Default EB doesn't have the wedge formation, so yeah.

umm, 1 cav in the front, followed by 2 in reasonably long column formation also works, even when not as effective

[Poulp']

I'd split the most dominant infantry in Europe into two categories: war-winning and battle-winning.

War-winnning: the cheapest infantry available to every factions; Akonkistai, Rorarii, etc... They are here to keep my back safe when the main force is on campaign.
It sounds obvious, but these guys deserve praise. There's an expression in french; "Rendons à César ce qui reviens à César", if there's an equivalant in english, I'd be glad to learn it.

Battle-winning Infantry.

- Rorarii - Cheap, numerous and 240 javelins per volley can't be wrong. Plus, they have a special power: We've got reserves. Your precious Rorarii got badly mauled? No problem, there's more of them where they came from, just send a few more units to the front. IMO, they are as much an exploit as a spam of Iaosatae.
In my games, they're one of the few units you'll find both in garnison duty and battle.
- Camillian Hastatii - Come at a discount price. Pedites may steal the show, but these guys bear the brunt of the opposition.

With the proper buildings, Epiros can field those two units at +2 exp from half the Italian peninsula, not bad for regionals.
Polybian Principes don't belong in here in my book; by the time you have access to them, they are just here to consolidate your domination. Icing on the cake if you will.

- Caetarti - Speed, stamina, AP at range and melee. They are the reason why you don't venture in a Lusotani-dominated Iberia without preparation (a good foothold, experienced or massed missile infantry, redondant units...)

- Iaosatae - already discussed to death.

- Peltastai - Flexible, reliable, and a good AoR near the Mediterranean. I send them to the meat grinder knowing I can always retrain them somewhere near. Jack of all trades, master of none, you'll find a lot of faster units, hitting harder or more enduring, but few who can do everything as well as peltastai.

- Mercenary Thracian Peltastai - The assault version of peltastai, because of their larger AoR, I'd rate them above their non-mercenary cousins. I tend to use them in a different, more conservative way compared to ordinary peltastai; usually shunning archers and cavalry and rushing into gaps or breaches.

[antisocialmunky]

- Mercenary Thracian Peltastai - The assault version of peltastai, because of their larger AoR, I'd rate them above their non-mercenary cousins. I tend to use them in a different, more conservative way compared to ordinary peltastai; usually shunning archers and cavalry and rushing into gaps or breaches.

These guys are one of the best general purpose units in the game. They are great for catching horsies.

[The Celtic Viking]

There's an expression in french; "Rendons à César ce qui reviens à César", if there's an equivalant in english, I'd be glad to learn it.

Yes, there is: "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s". It's from the Bible.

[fomalhaut]

These guys are one of the best general purpose units in the game. They are great for catching horsies.

yep :D
my favorite unit thread was made specifically for these guys. they look cool, are verrrrrry versatile and i can be assured that whoever i tell them to attack will most likely end up dead quickly. horses, armored elites, peasants, whoever.

and yeah, the homeland garrison doesn't get enough due!

[Poulp']

These guys are one of the best general purpose units in the game. They are great for catching horsies.

Great at cleaving through horse and man alike after some kind of cavalry bogged them down. I don't use thracians to run after cavalry, but if said cavalry run into thracians... well, dead horsemen. After a few years of campaign, a unit of Thracian Peltastai still at fighting strength is frightening. Killing FM bodyguards, wiping out elite units, scaling up and clearing walls, taking care of a flank, they are good at everything. Everything but playing the sacrificial lamb; pretty much any other unit is better suited to play that role, even Cretan Archers, since I tend to have them in large numbers.


@ TheCelticViking, thanks, I didn't knew about the "render unto". It would have made an awkward translation.

[Lazy O]

I apologise, it seems I mixed up the Scythian Nobles of EB with the ones of RS2(they had wedge), its not the same as one unit in front and 2 behind.

So it seems Geticus's notion of 4 Jundiz(whatever) is correct as the most cost effective in the game.

[vollorix]

Maybe it´s me, maybe i´m too bad tactician, but Thracian Peltasts have way too bad stamina to run after horses, or try to catch any skirmishers. Yes, they are very powerfull if used properly, but there is one thing i have noticed in my Getai campaigns: for the costs of 1 Thracian P, i can hire/maintain 2 Drapanai. I can retrain them anywhere in Dacia and Thrace, i can simply mass produce them all day long from all core settlements ( and those are a lot! ), and their stamina ( very hardy vs. hardy ) + morale ( 15 vs. 12? ) are much higher then of the peltasts. Missiles aren´t a problem at all, if you do not line up Drapanai against a skirmisher infantry, and archers aren´t a problem, since my own mostly make short work of them; what does one have light/medium cavalry for, if not to deal with that pesky scum? ^^ ) Only nomads pose danger to them, but then Thracian Peltasts die as easily as any other unit with such a pathetic shield ( = 2.. ), their armour won´t help them at all ( slingers make especially short work on them too ).
Anyway, just fighting Aedui with those sweet Belgian troopers - it´s a mass slaughter, and i only use 2 Milnaht per stack, Batacorii for the win

[athanaric]

I'd split the most dominant infantry in Europe into two categories: war-winning and battle-winning.

Akontistai and Rorarii are great garrison and reserve troops. Then again, so are Gaeroas who are better attackers.

- Caetarti - Speed, stamina, AP at range and melee. They are the reason why you don't venture in a Lusotani-dominated Iberia without preparation (a good foothold, experienced or massed missile infantry, Gallic swordsmen)

Fixed. You can defeat most if not all Lusitanian troops with appropriate use of Bataroas. Milnaht, Xerunoudozez, or Milites Ilergetum are of course even better, but less cost-efficient. Lusitanians suck in the lethality game, unlike other barbarians. They make up for it with lots and lots of AP units, but the other barbarians have to few armoured units to render this an advantage.

- Mercenary Thracian Peltastai - The assault version of peltastai, because of their larger AoR, I'd rate them above their non-mercenary cousins.

They have one point of body armour more.