Most dominant infantry in Europe

[fomalhaut]

These guys are one of the best general purpose units in the game. They are great for catching horsies.

yep :D
my favorite unit thread was made specifically for these guys. they look cool, are verrrrrry versatile and i can be assured that whoever i tell them to attack will most likely end up dead quickly. horses, armored elites, peasants, whoever.

and yeah, the homeland garrison doesn't get enough due!

[Poulp']

These guys are one of the best general purpose units in the game. They are great for catching horsies.

Great at cleaving through horse and man alike after some kind of cavalry bogged them down. I don't use thracians to run after cavalry, but if said cavalry run into thracians... well, dead horsemen. After a few years of campaign, a unit of Thracian Peltastai still at fighting strength is frightening. Killing FM bodyguards, wiping out elite units, scaling up and clearing walls, taking care of a flank, they are good at everything. Everything but playing the sacrificial lamb; pretty much any other unit is better suited to play that role, even Cretan Archers, since I tend to have them in large numbers.


@ TheCelticViking, thanks, I didn't knew about the "render unto". It would have made an awkward translation.

[Lazy O]

I apologise, it seems I mixed up the Scythian Nobles of EB with the ones of RS2(they had wedge), its not the same as one unit in front and 2 behind.

So it seems Geticus's notion of 4 Jundiz(whatever) is correct as the most cost effective in the game.

[vollorix]

Maybe it´s me, maybe i´m too bad tactician, but Thracian Peltasts have way too bad stamina to run after horses, or try to catch any skirmishers. Yes, they are very powerfull if used properly, but there is one thing i have noticed in my Getai campaigns: for the costs of 1 Thracian P, i can hire/maintain 2 Drapanai. I can retrain them anywhere in Dacia and Thrace, i can simply mass produce them all day long from all core settlements ( and those are a lot! ), and their stamina ( very hardy vs. hardy ) + morale ( 15 vs. 12? ) are much higher then of the peltasts. Missiles aren´t a problem at all, if you do not line up Drapanai against a skirmisher infantry, and archers aren´t a problem, since my own mostly make short work of them; what does one have light/medium cavalry for, if not to deal with that pesky scum? ^^ ) Only nomads pose danger to them, but then Thracian Peltasts die as easily as any other unit with such a pathetic shield ( = 2.. ), their armour won´t help them at all ( slingers make especially short work on them too ).
Anyway, just fighting Aedui with those sweet Belgian troopers - it´s a mass slaughter, and i only use 2 Milnaht per stack, Batacorii for the win

[antisocialmunky]

You can beat heavy horse with light horse(like the crap greek mounted skirms) + skirms with spears or AP. But its not unit count efficient.

[athanaric]

I'd split the most dominant infantry in Europe into two categories: war-winning and battle-winning.

Akontistai and Rorarii are great garrison and reserve troops. Then again, so are Gaeroas who are better attackers.

- Caetarti - Speed, stamina, AP at range and melee. They are the reason why you don't venture in a Lusotani-dominated Iberia without preparation (a good foothold, experienced or massed missile infantry, Gallic swordsmen)

Fixed. You can defeat most if not all Lusitanian troops with appropriate use of Bataroas. Milnaht, Xerunoudozez, or Milites Ilergetum are of course even better, but less cost-efficient. Lusitanians suck in the lethality game, unlike other barbarians. They make up for it with lots and lots of AP units, but the other barbarians have to few armoured units to render this an advantage.

- Mercenary Thracian Peltastai - The assault version of peltastai, because of their larger AoR, I'd rate them above their non-mercenary cousins.

They have one point of body armour more.

[Geticus]

Maybe it´s me, maybe i´m too bad tactician, but Thracian Peltasts have way too bad stamina to run after horses, or try to catch any skirmishers. Yes, they are very powerfull if used properly, but there is one thing i have noticed in my Getai campaigns: for the costs of 1 Thracian P, i can hire/maintain 2 Drapanai. I can retrain them anywhere in Dacia and Thrace, i can simply mass produce them all day long from all core settlements ( and those are a lot! ), and their stamina ( very hardy vs. hardy ) + morale ( 15 vs. 12? ) are much higher then of the peltasts. Missiles aren´t a problem at all, if you do not line up Drapanai against a skirmisher infantry, and archers aren´t a problem, since my own mostly make short work of them; what does one have light/medium cavalry for, if not to deal with that pesky scum? ^^ ) Only nomads pose danger to them, but then Thracian Peltasts die as easily as any other unit with such a pathetic shield ( = 2.. ), their armour won´t help them at all ( slingers make especially short work on them too ).
Anyway, just fighting Aedui with those sweet Belgian troopers - it´s a mass slaughter, and i only use 2 Milnaht per stack, Batacorii for the win

Yeah Thraikian peltasts are jacks of all trades, masters of none. Good in melee vs. most anything, but with their modest base defense (20) most quality swordsmen will damage them substantially in a straight up fight. And top notch longswordsmen like Neitos, used right, crush Thraikian peltasts. Likewise they are good in skirmishing, but a little low on the stamina/speed scales and not quite the numbers or firepower of high chevron Jugundiz, Ambushers, or Dacian skirmishers. People are saying that Thraikian peltasts are good vs heavy cavalry, but actually if the lancers are used right, Thraikian peltasts suffer severly from a well directed heavy cavalry charge since their armor is halved. The Getai economy is a bit weak also, so like Sweboz I always keep using the 200 mnai units, I just favor Komatai over Drapanai due to the komatai's better armor/shield and versatility.

I too like cutting KH bodyguards and hetairoi bodyguards up with Drapanai, my Phylakes Daoi are also very good at headhunting generals. But in the absolute sense drapanai are dartboards, any skirmisher or javelin armed infantry held in reserve will destroy a drapanai reserve with javelins, so they tend to work better as an exploit against the AI. When you play the Getai there are many drapanai garrisons in the Thraikian eleutheroi cities, and they are among the easiest units to destroy, archers and skirmishers alike wipe them out with ease. So the main reason drapanai work well against the AI is because the AI doesn't play smart. The Thraikian peltast and rhompaiaphoroi garrisons are far harder to finish off. Just try an single player custom battle, 3 bataroas vs. 3 drapanai/bastarnae the javelins absolutely destroy the drapanai with like 30%+ casualties over 1 or 2 seconds sometimes routing them even before they reach melee. So against a skilled player with a combined arms army (i.e. plenty javelins/missiles) drapanai in large numbers would get raped. So I keep their numbers low and the bulk of my Getic infantry lines are comprised of Komatai/Thraikian peltasts and sometimes Dacian phalanxes.

As for batacorii, truth be told I recognize some of their strengths, but never emphasize them because when I play Aedui/Arvernni, the twin capitols of Bibracte and Alesia are always my primary recruitment zone (bataroas), along with Mediolanum in North Italy for levying Southern Gallic Swordsmen vs Rome. But I see the merits that you cite, I too play EB on BI and shieldwall is really nice in some situations. But with their low armor, I know that batacorii would suffer tremendously if outmaneuvered and shot in the back by high level skirmishers. That and batacorii cost nearly twice as much as Jugundiz, have the same numbers, only half the number of javelins.

[vollorix]

Well, yes, there is quite a difference whether you play SP or MP it seems.
Concerning Drapanai vs. Bataroas: charging straight ahead with Drapanai, and recieving all the missile volleys would be really bad for the naked guys; but if i´ll sacrifice one unit of Drapanai in loose formation, exposing them to the javelines of the Bataroas, i´d say i might break Bataroas afterwards, but i have to try it out yet...
Concerning Thracian Peltast and their Elites: that´s exactly the point in using Drapanai against them - the former are armoured to teath, got "ap" weapons, but the "poor" naked Drapanai lack any armour + cut through of those guys like nothing - that is a contradiction, imo, because all i need are a couple of slingers, archers and Drapanai to take those Thracian settlements. My army costs 1/3 of the garrison, my casualities are irrelevant ( cheap ), and another "Heroic Victory" is guaranteed ;)
Batacorii do indeed suffer heavy causalities if outflanked, and even AI loves flanking them, but hey, once all javelines are spended, i guess one can overwhelm German troops.

Btw: can some one explain me, why the Thracian Doriophoroi, as well as Briton Midland Spearmen got 55 missile range? Those are levies/semi levies, their attack value is that of a low tier javeline, but they got that insane range, especially the Doriophoroi since they got 4 javelines!?! You ain´t need any skirmishers, actually, your levy line troops do the job superb, and the Thracians are even much plentier ( 120 men on large ) then many skirmisher units. I would understand if those were kind of specialists, levies, but still, but no, they are no where near it....

[VikingPower]

Try to use these 'good' units against Iberian scutari in a custom battle and watch the massacre. Of all these units whom you have spoken of then only Milnahts can beat them.

[Geticus]

Try to use these 'good' units against Iberian scutari in a custom battle and watch the massacre. Of all these units whom you have spoken of then only Milnahts can beat them.

Right, but Scutarii are 2.5 times as expensive as Jugundz and recruit with fewer chevrons. No question which is the better unit one on one, just that the 4 chev Jugundz give the Sweboz an extreme macro army building advantage due to the Jugundz low cost, and versatility. If the Lusotannan can field Loricati Scutarii in equal numbers to the Sweboz Jugundiz hordes, then the Sweboz and all the rest of Europe are doomed.

[Geticus]

Well, yes, there is quite a difference whether you play SP or MP it seems.
Concerning Drapanai vs. Bataroas: charging straight ahead with Drapanai, and recieving all the missile volleys would be really bad for the naked guys; but if i´ll sacrifice one unit of Drapanai in loose formation, exposing them to the javelines of the Bataroas, i´d say i might break Bataroas afterwards, but i have to try it out yet...
Concerning Thracian Peltast and their Elites: that´s exactly the point in using Drapanai against them - the former are armoured to teath, got "ap" weapons, but the "poor" naked Drapanai lack any armour + cut through of those guys like nothing - that is a contradiction, imo, because all i need are a couple of slingers, archers and Drapanai to take those Thracian settlements. My army costs 1/3 of the garrison, my casualities are irrelevant ( cheap ), and another "Heroic Victory" is guaranteed ;)
Batacorii do indeed suffer heavy causalities if outflanked, and even AI loves flanking them, but hey, once all javelines are spended, i guess one can overwhelm German troops.

Btw: can some one explain me, why the Thracian Doriophoroi, as well as Briton Midland Spearmen got 55 missile range? Those are levies/semi levies, their attack value is that of a low tier javeline, but they got that insane range, especially the Doriophoroi since they got 4 javelines!?! You ain´t need any skirmishers, actually, your levy line troops do the job superb, and the Thracians are even much plentier ( 120 men on large ) then many skirmisher units. I would understand if those were kind of specialists, levies, but still, but no, they are no where near it....

Thraikian Doruphoroi have good javelins in keeping with the theme that the Getai/Dacian/Thraikian faction is a faction of skirmishers. So their tier 1 spearman has skirmisher like range and higher jav count, though lacking the ability to actually skirmish.

BTW I just realized I was wrong, the temples of Cernunnos are the ones that bestor +3 chevrons for the Sweboz, and there is often one in the Carnute city, not Bratosporios, so no 5 chevron Batacorii.

[antisocialmunky]

Thraikian Doruphoroi are surprisingly good. I always use them to cover my rear if I go for the giant ball of dudes rush.

[Lazy O]

The Drapanai argument is really weak, since they have practically 0 armour and get massacred by archers.

[athanaric]

Thraikian Doruphoroi have good javelins in keeping with the theme that the Getai/Dacian/Thraikian faction is a faction of skirmishers. So their tier 1 spearman has skirmisher like range and higher jav count, though lacking the ability to actually skirmish.

Drapanai + Doryphoroi = zerg rush
Beats anything except mass archers.

BTW I just realized I was wrong, the temples of Cernunnos are the ones that bestor +3 chevrons for the Sweboz, and there is often one in the Carnute city, not Bratosporios, so no 5 chevron Batacorii.

You'd get 5 chevron Celto-Germanic Spearmen though, who're almost identical stat-wise, indeed even better in some ways.

[Lazy O]

Unless the Getai have superior missile power, its useless

[DaciaJC]

Unless the Getai have superior missile power, its useless

I'd hardly call it "useless." Obviously one would be incredibly foolish to head out into the steppes with mostly just Drapanai, but against a standard Eurobarb army, a large contingent of Draps backed by supporting troops is incredibly effective given their price.

[fomalhaut]

The Drapanai argument is really weak, since they have practically 0 armour and get massacred by archers.

this is what i've been saying! Elite Thracian's are better though they are more expensive, less numerous, and smaller aor. i just don't like one shot kills against my drapanai, it breaks my heart

[antisocialmunky]

Not when you have enough ;).

[fomalhaut]

i value my soldiers! they aren't just men to be thrown away
in fact i will disband units often as a way of roleplaying them going back to their farms and families, thanking them for their service with some nice money

[Lazy O]

And what would a standard EuroBarb army be?

[CashMunny]

Bataroas spam, or dugundiz spam mostly.

[Lazy O]

But.... anything works vs AI

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Well 20 units of Drapanai are not ideal either. 10 will still rip through any army and leave plenty of cash for more heavily armored units to shake off the archer fire.

[Lazy O]

Archer fire will still rip through the Drapanai. Leaving half your army dead.

[vollorix]

This is a bit confusing, gentlemen: it seems we are talking about MP ( archer armies will only be fielded by Sauros, and there is also a big difference in which terrain a battle would be fought, etc. ), while silver chevroned Jugundiz + the conditions of the OP are quite diferent and concern single player, imo.
One of the important things for troops beeing effectiv, imo, is stamina. But sadly, any unit with normal physis would tire out after even a little jogging on the battlefield, the ones with good stamina are fine, unless a battle take realy a while, with manouvering troops around the flanks, charging, repeating the actions etc., but the only once which are usefull are with "very hardy" attribute, and this brings a dilemma with it, i think. Heavy troops which ain´t have that attribute are worthless ( except it´s a phalanx of any kind that has to hold the line, not more ), but the once with it are the true dread on the battlefield. Drapanai, Milnaht, Botroas, and some other units, are "very hardy", while most of the others heavier guys aren´t. Of course, Jugundiz are, therefore their morale, their lethality, and their efficiency in the combat are pretty unmatched with 4 chevrons experience, coupled with 6 javelines and 0.13 spear lethality. Btw: is there any other way to adjust the durability of the troops other then in the EDU? Like in the animation parts, or determining the "weight" of a unit ( aka: light, heavy, etc ) ?

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Well with regards to SP, you can only play against AI and so I feel that large contingents of Drapanai are incredibly strong, even more so than the 4 chevron Jugundiz spam just because of higher lethality and AP. The AI is incapable of singling out units that are lightly armored for archer fire and so this tactic is incredibly useful.

As far as MP is concerned, Drap spam works sometimes, if skillfully executed by the Getai player. That is, some light cavalry to screen the Draps and keep opposing archer units moving. Another good tactic is to advance heavier troops up first, distract your opponent with cavalry manuevers to his flanks or rear, and then quickly charge the infantry home before he can react quickly enough. Also keep Draps in loose formation up until the charge.

It is also worth noting that the Getai get better archery/slinger units than most other Western factions and so may often win missile duels outright.

[Lazy O]

For the last time, its useless thinking about the best ways to deal with the AI. ANYTHING WORKS

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

For the last time, its useless thinking about the best ways to deal with the AI. ANYTHING WORKS

Well unfortunately, like it or not, that is basically the entire point of this thread as we can't play against other humans in a campaign.

[CashMunny]

Well unfortunately, like it or not, that is basically the entire point of this thread as we can't play against other humans in a campaign.

Besides, I'd like to see him take a fullstack of toxotai and do anything with them. Yes, it's fairly easy to beat the AI. No, 'just anything' won't work though.

[william weedzor]

As far as MP is concerned, Drap spam works sometimes, if skillfully executed by the Getai player. That is, some light cavalry to screen the Draps and keep opposing archer units moving. Another good tactic is to advance heavier troops up first, distract your opponent with cavalry manuevers to his flanks or rear, and then quickly charge the infantry home before he can react quickly enough. Also keep Draps in loose formation up until the charge.

Is the opponent atleast allowed to watch or he must be really AFK during this?:D

Anyway MP tactics like this should start with "And then he suddenly went afk" or "Fortunately,my dog Jerry was distracted by our cat Tittie so he cant react in time against my light cavalry".

Nothing against,but human players dare to have their own plans while your tactic just simply ignore the very existence of active human mind on the other side.