EB is not Historical?

**Ludens** · 04-07-2011, 10:32

Could we please stop treating anyone who brings up a controversial topic as a potential troll? This is a good way of ensuring the topic stays controversial.

TotalWarlord's arguments have indeed been hotly debated before, but that is because many people have heard only one side of the story. So yes, it's quite possible that a new member is not aware of this, especially if he didn't check out the FAQ. Shouting "OMG, how can you not know?!" at him will not convince him you are right.

Originally Posted by Mulceber

1. Someone else could probably answer this one better than me, but iirc, overhand and underhand are both accurate, depending on the style of phalanx warfare. Classical greek hoplites fought overhand. The Macedonian/Hellenistic style phalanx was underhand.

2. In every source I've seen, Lorica Segmentata was used from the first century AD to the third. Outside of EB's time frame.

Just a few nitpicks:

1) It probably wasn't as absolute as this: both high and low styles are feasible with sarissa's and dory's, depending on what the situation requires. Swiss pikemen had a stance where they held their pikes at shoulder height (the phalangite shield useless in this stance, so Hellenic pikemen probably didn't use this). Underhand spear-fighting can make sense for hoplites too, say in one-on-one combat. The team went with overhand style since this is used on most Classical depictions, and seems suited to shield-wall combat.

2) Elements of a Lorica Segmentata have been dated to 10 BC, and this probably does not represent the first use of this armour. However, the team is of the opinion that it did not become widespread until 50 AD, and even at its most popular, many legionaries would still use chainmail.

**antisocialmunky** · 04-08-2011, 05:15

Originally Posted by Ludens

Could we please stop treating anyone who brings up a controversial topic as a potential troll? This is a good way of ensuring the topic stays controversial.

TotalWarlord's arguments have indeed been hotly debated before, but that is because many people have heard only one side of the story. So yes, it's quite possible that a new member is not aware of this, especially if he didn't check out the FAQ. Shouting "OMG, how can you not know?!" at him will not convince him you are right.

Just a few nitpicks:

1) It probably wasn't as absolute as this: both high and low styles are feasible with sarissa's and dory's, depending on what the situation requires. Swiss pikemen had a stance where they held their pikes at shoulder height (the phalangite shield useless in this stance, so Hellenic pikemen probably didn't use this). Underhand spear-fighting can make sense for hoplites too, say in one-on-one combat. The team went with overhand style since this is used on most Classical depictions, and seems suited to shield-wall combat.

2) Elements of a Lorica Segmentata have been dated to 10 BC, and this probably does not represent the first use of this armour. However, the team is of the opinion that it did not become widespread until 50 AD, and even at its most popular, many legionaries would still use chainmail.

It is hard to take a 1 post person seriously especially if they don't respond in some way afterwards. Also the post gets more outlandish as it goes. :\ Inform him however you must though.

**TotalWarlord** · 04-08-2011, 07:21

I apologize to everyone that has been offended by this post. I had no intentions in anyway whatsoever to insult or mar the credibility of the EB Team as they made a very good job. All I can say is:
The EB team was right about the overhand method. However it also depended on the length of the spear the hoplite was equiped. Certainly a longer spear would be difficult to strike in the overhand fashion.

Well antisocialmunky I have been reading the responses from everyone who made a reply and was taking into perspective each ones opinion.

**fomalhaut** · 04-08-2011, 07:27

hey totalwarlord, thank you for replying! just imagine from our perspective that someone's very first post was were the two very, very controversial topics.

**TotalWarlord** · 04-08-2011, 10:30

fomalhaut I'm very sorry for the fact that these topics were very controversial for as you see I am very quite new here.

**Brennus** · 04-08-2011, 10:50

Originally Posted by TotalWarlord

fomalhaut I'm very sorry for the fact that these topics were very controversial for as you see I am very quite new here.

And your very welcome!

Btw, do you know what the Occultus faction represents, we don't have a clue.

**The_Blacksmith** · 04-08-2011, 10:54

Originally Posted by TotalWarlord

fomalhaut I'm very sorry for the fact that these topics were very controversial for as you see I am very quite new here.

Its okay, i was quite confused when i started playing EB, but the over-hand under-hand thing IMHO is a question of where the hoplite is from, for example: the Syracusian hoplites fought in loose formations and that favours the underhand thrust where the interlocked "shieldwall" of main greece favours the overhand

**Rahwana** · 04-08-2011, 12:03

just calm down and take your seat

**Julianus** · 04-09-2011, 03:49

I believe overhand thrust makes more sense in an interlocked shieldwall formation, which is more prevalent in Hellenic world, but then I'm not so sure how to explain the fact that most wounds suffered in hoplite battles were in the thighs which I read in quite a few books. I mean, how could you strike at the other guy's thighs which are under his aspis with your spear-hand above your own aspis?

**fomalhaut** · 04-09-2011, 04:21

explained easily; what's the best place to make sure someone who is running away (with all their fancy equipment to take for yourself) can't get back up? stab them in the leg.

most casualities took place during the rout, and the thigh is a big juicy target for ending someones combat effectiveness and their ability to keep running away.