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  1. #1

    Default Re: Civil War in Libya

    Jaguara - I will be the first to acknowledge that mistakes were made in the Iraqi intervention - many, many mistakes. That goes without saying. However, I also believe that many of those mistakes were based on the assumption that the Iraqis would step up and act in a reasonable, responsible, and civilized manner.

    My only point throughout the exchange with Hax is that the Arabs should be held accountable for at least a portion of their problems. The victim mentality first eluded to by Louis masks deeper societal problems that have little to do with the West.

    As I said before, the Eastern Libyans have somehow managed the impossible and garnered not only complete international support for their insurrection but also Western military backing. The only thing standing in their way are their own countrymen, who, amazingly, are willing to stand up to some of the most advanced militaries in the world to keep Gadaffi in power. This is nothing new to students of the Arab world.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leet Eriksson
    Pure racist emotional drivel, you probably don't realise it yet, but yes they can and do. You make very sweeping, and false generalizations, yet back nothing up. Their Culture which one sweety? the tunisian? or the egyptian? or the other 20 other arab countries?
    Hello Leet Eriksson. The emotional hyperbole seems to be coming strictly from your keyboard.

    Culture can be scaled up and down the throughout full spectrum of human subsets, from one family to the entire race. Arab culture has been identified as having specific elements that distinguish it from others. The fact that there are subcultures within the larger Arab culture does not render it useless as an identifier.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 04-15-2011 at 04:30.

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    AKA Leif 3000 TURBO Senior Member Leet Eriksson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Hello Leet Eriksson. The emotional hyperbole seems to be coming strictly from your keyboard.

    Culture can be scaled up and down the throughout full spectrum of human subsets, from one family to the entire race. Arab culture has been identified as having specific elements that distinguish it from others. The fact that there are subcultures within the larger Arab culture does not render it useless as an identifier.
    No it doesn't, you have yet to back your ridiculous claim by the way, since even the wikipedia article isn't certain Arab Culture is "incapable of having a civil society" whatever that means.

    There is no single Arab culture or society: the Arab world is full of rich and diverse communities, groups and cultures. Differences exist not only among countries, but within countries. While there are many different regions in these areas and different factors that distinguish each of them, there are also many factors unifying them into a single Arab nation. this is like literally the first paragraph in wikipedia.
    Last edited by Leet Eriksson; 04-15-2011 at 04:48.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Civil War in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Leet Eriksson View Post
    No it doesn't, you have yet to back your ridiculous claim by the way, since even the wikipedia article isn't certain Arab Culture is "incapable of having a civil society" whatever that means.
    I understand the problem now. This is a failure of communication. I thought it was clear that my claim was supposition with the state of the Arab world itself and it's history as the backing. "I've become more and more convinced..." does not imply a hard factual basis, but an observation.

    There is no single Arab culture or society: the Arab world is full of rich and diverse communities, groups and cultures. Differences exist not only among countries, but within countries. While there are many different regions in these areas and different factors that distinguish each of them, there are also many factors unifying them into a single Arab nation. this is like literally the first paragraph in wikipedia.
    Yes, it does.

    I don't understand the issue you're having. Are you denying the existence of Arab culture? Such a position would stand in contrast to the generally accepted (and very basic) sociological and anthropological understandings of the region, not to mention a fair number of pro-Arab institutions. I am a sucker for outlier positions though.

    If you're interested in learning more about Arab culture, I would suggest Arab Society and Culture: An Essential Guide by Samir Khalaf. If 500+ pages isn't your thing, Understanding the Arab Culture by Jehad Al-Omari is a decent read. I had to read it for a class and it is fairly business oriented, but still gives a good overview of Arab culture.

    I hope this helps you.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 04-15-2011 at 05:16.

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    Default Re: Civil War in Libya

    Oh it sure did, let me re-quote in case you forgot, you did not make an observation, but a claim

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
    but their culture is structured in such a way that they are not capable of establishing a modern civil society
    Now you're arguing its an observation yet, get this, tell me to read books about Arabic Culture, somehow these books contain evidence that rings your observation "true", since this is an internet debate, and you have already read these books, why don't you post evidence with references from both books about how arabs aren't capable of establishing a civil modern society, yet hilariously they can do business for sure, but civil society... ditto.
    Last edited by Leet Eriksson; 04-15-2011 at 05:47.
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    Default Re: Civil War in Libya

    A true story that deserves its own post, i'm not one to spam usually but a Friend of Mine Took a Bullet at Tahrir Square fighting for democracy and equal rights, among many issues including gender, and sexual identity, yet some guy in America tells me how my Society and Culture (tm) based on books he Read that we as a cultural unit, reduced to an "identifier" on the internet are incapable of having a civil society, because somehow we must conform to this futuristic funny guy's ideas about Civility, do you see how ridiculous this is?

    To Elaborate even further, and to touch on how ridiculous the whole thing is, Arab Culture isn't a hegemony, and "arab culture" does not qualify as an identifier for sweeping generalizations, unless you can back up your claim, your "observations" are wholly irrelevant.
    Last edited by Leet Eriksson; 04-15-2011 at 06:06.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War in Libya

    Inevitably, one reverts back to the great Bernard Lewis, whose work explained how Islam impeded the development of a civic society in Arabian societies, and aided despotism:
    The received wisdom of the “Orientalist” school is that the lack of civil society in the Arab world is due to the absence, or at best the irremediable weakness, of civil society’s basic elements. For the prevailing trend in that school, Islam has been the primary reason for this because of what is considered to be its “despotic” nature, best illustrated by Islam not knowing any separation of the spiritual and the temporal and by its only acknowledging divine sovereignty, which is believed to inhibit the emergence of any autonomous public sphere. Furthermore, Islam impeded the formation of a civil society that could have resisted despotism for, in the words of Bernard Lewis:
    Islamic law knows no corporate legal persons; Islamic history shows no councils or communes, no synods or parliaments, nor any other kind of elective or representative assembly. It is interesting that the jurists never accepted the principle of majority decision. There was no point, since the need for a procedure of corporate collective decision never arose. In heaven there was one God, and one alone; on earth there was no court but a single judge, no state but a single ruler.11
    The fact that mainstream Sunni political thought in classical Islam upheld the doctrine that when the unity of the community (umma) was in danger, and in the potential face of anarchy, submission ought to be given to the ruler even if an evil-doer, led another leading author of the Orientalist school, Elie Kedourie, to assert that in Islam:
    There can be no question of checks and balances, of division of power, of popular sovereignty, of elections of representative assemblies. … There could be no question of representative bodies being set up to carry on a dialogue between ruler and subject; neither could there be institutions of local self-government in town or countryside; nor could craft or professional associations flourish unhindered, since they would always be suspected of limiting the sway of the government over its subjects.12

    http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/...ions/salam.pdf
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    But Lewis is an orientalist, or so say his critics, who note the Arab world has seen an emergence of a civil society in recent decades. The following was written in 2002, and it is my distinct impression civil society has gained much ground since then (but also lost some):

    Two turning point events in the contemporary history of the Middle East would, however, allow civil societies to re-emerge and regain strength, for they compelled most Arab states to consider change and start opening up their regimes—although not to the degree often publicized. The first of these events was the impact on the radical governments of the 1967 Arab defeat by Israel. Not only were their “nationalist” strategies now questioned, their failure to deliver on their promises of development and social justice were attacked as well. The second event was the Gulf crisis of 1990-1991, which threatened the oil monarchies in their legitimacy while it also exposed for all to see the adventurism and oppressive nature of the Iraqi regime.

    Several other factors have led to the revitalization of civil society in the Arab world during the past three decades. The most important among them are the following:

    . Massive urbanization leading both to growth in the socio-economic needs of the population and to the weakening of primordial ties. What is important to note here is that this phenomenon is continuing at a time when many Arab states are no longer capable of providing such services as housing, better quality health, and education, let alone job opportunities.

    . The increasing number of university graduates,
    especially those holding European and American degrees, along with the general expansion of education. The subsequent rise of the levels of expectation and ambition of the young is motivating them to organize in order to better articulate their demands. This also explains the developing attention to issues of human rights and women among Arab youth.

    . The recent trend of international development agencies (such as the World Bank, UNDP, and others), the European Union, and numbers of bilateral donors to extend grants and loans no longer to national governments only, but directly to “vulnerable” social groups (e.g., women, disabled, youth), to associations carrying out projects related to “human” or “sustainable” development, such as environment protection and rural development, and to local governments (e.g., regional councils, municipalities). As a matter of fact, the role of NGOs in development has become a key feature of the “neo-liberal” approach to socio-economic problems based on private sector initiatives, especially with an increasing trend towards privatization throughout the Arab world.

    The political liberalization that took place during the past two decades, even though it was initiated from above and often pursuant to the advice given to Arab rulers by their Western allies. When most Arab leaders promote reforms, it is not because they have come to accept the possibility of having to relinquish power one day, but rather because “they seek to keep it,” as Richard Norton so pertinently puts it. However, whatever the limitations of such reforms so far, they did open up certain outlets for the free expression of ideas, and permitted a large number of interest groups to form NGOs and of social groups to start organizing, be it in the form of clubs, syndicates or associations.

    The rapidity with which new technologies such as the internet and satellite television are gaining ground in the Arab world is circumventing state control over information and further exposing the people of the region to foreign experiments of change and dissent, whether successful or not. This is also contributing to their higher levels of consciousness and to greater aspirations.
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    AKA Leif 3000 TURBO Senior Member Leet Eriksson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Inevitably, one reverts back to the great Bernard Lewis, whose work explained how Islam impeded the development of a civic society in Arabian societies, and aided despotism:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    But Lewis is an orientalist, or so say his critics, who note the Arab world has seen an emergence of a civil society in recent decades. The following was written in 2002, and it is my distinct impression civil society has gained much ground since then (but also lost some):

    This is Pure **. that has been debunked already by the long dead Edward Said, Bernard Lewis gets the luxury of still talking about drivel and inspiring islamophobes, under a veneer of being Scholarly, but he is not reputable at all.
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 04-15-2011 at 08:01. Reason: Acronyms for profanity should be asterisked out
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Leet Eriksson View Post
    This is Pure ** that has been debunked already by the long dead Edward Said, Bernard Lewis gets the luxury of still talking about drivel and inspiring islamophobes, under a veneer of being Scholarly, but he is not reputable at all.
    That's very much open to debate. I for one do not necessarily agree with the opinion of the Egyptian-American, erm, sorry, 'Palestinian' Edward Said.

    However that may be, note that I take a more advanced approach to the issue of Arab civil societies than Lewis. Civil societies have been emerging the past few decades, notably the past decade.

    ~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~


    Quote Originally Posted by Leet Eriksson
    A true story that deserves its own post, i'm not one to spam usually but a Friend of Mine Took a Bullet at Tahrir Square fighting for democracy and equal rights,


    To Elaborate even further, and to touch on how ridiculous the whole thing is, Arab Culture isn't a hegemony, and "arab culture" does not qualify as an identifier for sweeping generalizations, unless you can back up your claim, your "observations" are wholly irrelevant.
    Not to be disrespectful to your friend, but would you be awfully dismayed if I repeat my earlier (orientalist?) claim that an emotional invoking of shed blood and martyrdom is a commonly observed trait of a common Arab culture?
    (One need only to walk into a Christian church to witness firsthand Middle Eastern martyr cultism.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    martyrs and blood and accompanying colourful language.
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 04-15-2011 at 08:03. Reason: Edited quote
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Civil War in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Leet Eriksson View Post
    Oh it sure did, let me re-quote in case you forgot, you did not make an observation, but a claim



    Now you're arguing its an observation yet, get this, tell me to read books about Arabic Culture, somehow these books contain evidence that rings your observation "true", since this is an internet debate, and you have already read these books, why don't you post evidence with references from both books about how arabs aren't capable of establishing a civil modern society...
    Ok, I can do that. I understand what you are looking for now.

    Please add the fascinating new book The Long Divergence: How Islamic Law Held Back the Middle East by Timur Kuran (Professor of Economics and Political Science & Gorter Family Professor of Islamic Studies at Duke University) to your Amazon wishlist.

    He concludes his work with a stark observation.

    “If the region's autocratic regimes were magically to fall, the development of strong private sectors and civil societies could take decades. With few exceptions, their civil societies are too poorly organized, and too beaten down, to provide the political checks and balances essential to sustained democratic rule.”

    Here are a few more articles that add some detail to my assertion:

    Freedom House:

    In a major study released today, Freedom House concludes that there is a dramatic, expanding gap in the levels of freedom and democracy between Islamic countries and the rest of the world. The study, Freedom in the World 2001-2002, finds that a non-Islamic country is more than three times likely to be democratic than an Islamic state.

    "This freedom and democracy divide exists not only between Islamic countries and the prosperous West," said Adrian Karatnycky, Freedom House president and coordinator of the survey. "There is a growing chasm between the Islamic community and the rest of world. While most Western and non-western countries are moving towards greater levels of freedom, the Islamic world is lagging behind.".
    The Middle East Quarterly:

    Seventeen Countries

    The best way to find out is by testing this idea against empirical data in those seventeen states.6 The inhabitants of these countries share a number of important qualities. They speak Arabic. Their historical references include the Muslim Arab conquests, the Ottoman empire, and European colonialism. Islam, the faith of 92 percent of the people in these countries, is arguably their most important common cultural characteristic. (Table 3) It is the state religion in all Arabic-speaking countries except Lebanon, designated as such in their constitutions or through the stipulation that the head of state must be Muslim. All incorporate, wholly or partially, Islamic law into their legal systems. Some Arab leaders not only make certain that Islam is implemented on the national level but also use it in varying degrees to justify their legitimacy and their policies. This applies especially to traditional monarchial regimes, such as Saudi Arabia.

    Religious freedom in the Arab world is usually restricted, for reasons ranging from state policy to vigilantism by extremists. Thus, at one end, the Saudi authority prohibits the practice of religions other than Islam, to the point that conversions out by Muslims is punishable by death.7 In Algeria, by contrast, the constitution declares Islam the state religion while prohibiting religious discrimination, which was of little use when Islamist terrorists in Algeria deliberately targeted and killed Christians during the recent civil strife in that country. The Libyan government bans Islamic groups at variance with the state-approved teaching of Islam. In Bahrain, the government controls and monitors both Sunnis and Shi'is. In Egypt, Copts face discrimination, while the law limits their rights as citizens; apostasy is not prosecuted by the authorities but has led to murder of real or designated apostates by extremists. In Iraq, the Shi'a and their religious leaders are repressed, while Assyrian Christians in th
    at country are in a permanently precarious situation. The Kuwaiti government forbids the founding of non-Islamic publishing companies or training institutions for clergy. In Oman, the mosques and religious services are monitored to ensure that the preachers stay clear of politics and within the sanctioned orthodoxy of Islam.

    Human rights has seen some improvements in recent years, such as the release of political prisoners or prisoners of conscience in Kuwait, Morocco, Tunisia, and Syria, but the region's record on this score remains dismal. Human Rights Watch states that in the Middle East and North Africa in 1997, "the overwhelming majority of people lived in countries where basic rights were routinely violated with impunity and where open criticism of the authorities knew sharp limits."8 Also, as reported by Amnesty International, the death penalty continued to be widely used. Other abuses included ill-treatment of prisoners and torture as in Egypt, "disappearances" in Syria, and killings of civilians in Algeria.9

    Women, notwithstanding constitutional guarantees in several countries, have little political power. With only a few exceptions, Arab women do not occupy leading executive, legislative, or judicial positions. Six of the seventeen Arab countries have not yet endorsed women's right to vote and have not yet given women the right to stand for election. (Table 4) Most Arab states have legislation that in many respects relegates women to an inferior status, and only Tunisia has legislated formal equality and monogamy. A study sponsored by the United Nations finds that the "majority of Arab women are either ignorant of their rights or are too impoverished to either claim or defend such rights. High illiteracy levels, economic hardship, unemployment, and poor educational attainment make women's awareness of and claim to their legal and political rights a luxury they cannot afford."10

    Indices help specify political and social trends. Gender Empowerment Measure developed by the United Nations Development Program shows the weak role and status of Arab women. Taking into account the percentages of seats in parliament held by women, of female administrators and managers, of female professional and technical workers, and of women's share of earned income it finds Kuwait ranking 72nd (of 174 countries in 1999), Tunisia 75th, Syria 81st, Morocco 84th, Egypt 86th, Algeria 92nd, United Arab Emirates 96th, Sudan 97th, and Jordan 98th.11

    Press freedom, as measured by Freedom House, does not exist in most Arab countries. Information control and the muzzling of journalists by governments, as well as self-censorship by journalists for fear of reprisals or being excluded from future access to news, continue. A press study of 186 countries rates the seventeen Arab countries: none have "free" print and broadcast media, 2 (or 12 percent) are "partly free," and 15 (or 88 percent) are "not free." (Table 5)

    Prosperity is fairly high across the region, but unevenly distributed. The redistributed oil wealth of some countries is reflected in their gross domestic product (GDP) and in their per capita income. The latter (as expressed in purchasing power parity), ranges from a high of $25,300 in Kuwait to a low of $800 in Yemen, with a weighted mean of $4,100. When the UNDP's Human Development Index (HDI) is used, only four Arab countries have rankings of high development; eleven others have rankings of medium human development; and the remaining two are ranked with low human development. (Table 6) All the countries scoring high on HDI are Persian Gulf oil states with small populations. They have the financial resources to address the important issues of education, health, and social welfare. Thus far, however, prosperity has not led to advances in democratic government.

    A different but related measure of economic growth, prosperity, and liberty is the Index of Economic Freedom, co-published by The Heritage Foundation and The Wall Street Journal.12 The 2000 edition of the index-which surveys the economies of 161 countries in terms of their foreign investment codes, fiscal burden of government, tariffs, banking, and more - reports a general improvement in the economic freedom of most Arab states during the past year. Bahrain is the most economically free country among the Arab states, due primarily to "a lack of taxation on personal income and business profits," and ranks as the fourth economically most free country in the world.13 Other Arab states fare far less well: Saudi Arabia comes in at 71, Lebanon at 90, Egypt at 110, and Syria at 139. Libya and Iraq bring up the rear, ranking 159 and 160 (out of 161 countries).

    As for political power, the Arab states include nine republics, four of them military dictatorships, while monarchs, sultans, and emirs rule eight others. Parliamentary power, where it exists, is weak, with appointed upper houses, and restrictions on opposition parties, where political parties are permitted at all. (Table 1) Suffrage is typically underdeveloped-nonexistent in several countries, restricted by gender or other factors in others, seldom transparent. Elections for the position of ruler are not permitted in at least eight countries, and elections for the legislative branches are not possible in four of them. (Table 2)

    What accounts for this poor political record? A variety of factors - Islam, Arab culture and traditions, the region's political economy - have been blamed for the lack of democracy in the Arab world. Western imperialism and hegemony still serve as useable scapegoats, while Arab leaders and elites are frequently described as anti-democratic, notwithstanding their rhetoric. All these explanations find adherents both within and without the Arab world.

    Thus, according to Mehran Tamadonfar, a political scientist who specializes in Islam, a polity is judged to be Muslim to the extent that it observes the basic teachings of Islam, which does not distinguish between the spiritual and the secular. Democracy and popular sovereignty, in the Western sense, are not acceptable, because they challenge the concept of divine sovereignty. The sovereignty of God is not questioned by a human ruler, or a government, that, in effect, enforces God's sovereignty by making the populace adhere to the Shari'a (sacred law of Islam).15

    Muhammad Shakir ash-Sharif, a Saudi, writes that

    democracy, which is "creeping" [tatasarrub] into the Muslim world, is incompatible with Islam because Islam offers governance by the Creator [al-khaliq], as understood by a properly instructed religious elite, whereas democracy, a non-Arabic term, necessarily implies rule by the created [al-makhluqin], in which unbelievers and the ignorant have an equal say in governance and usurp God's rule.16
    By contrast, Michael C. Hudson, an authority on Arab affairs, sees the Arab hostility to democracy as based less in a theological view of politics than in

    the insecurity of the ruling elite, based not necessarily on selfishness but on. . . a realistic appraisal of the situation, causes it to act autocratically. In the absence of legitimate structures, they cannot conceive of a loyal opposition-the chances are greater that it is subversive. Opposition leaders are right in labeling the incumbents as despotic. . . placed in the same situation, they invariably do the same thing.17
    More cynically, author and journalist Saïd K. Aburish focuses on the reality of tribal power. Arab leaders, he writes "depend on phony claims to legitimacy while representing small interest groups-minorities whose members owe their allegiance to them rather than the state as the representative and guardian of the interests of the people."18 The West, Aburish holds, appreciates this because, "Stability means dictatorship and an ensuing coercion of the people which eliminates the chances of attaining legitimacy and democracy."19 John L. Esposito, a professor of religion and international affairs, agrees: "For leaders in the West, democracy raises the prospect of old and reliable friends or client states being transformed into more independent and less predictable nations which might make Western access to oil less secure." Moreover, observes Esposito, democracy "risks the 'hijacking of democracy' by Islamic activists and further Islamic inroads into centers of power, threatening Western interests and fostering anti-Westernism and increased instability."20

    For Ziad K. Abdelnour, an international financier, "the strength of authoritarian governments and the frailty of their democratic opponents" is due to the political economy of the Middle East. Moreover, he links democracy to issues of war and peace. The rulers do not operate only within the parameters of their polities and bureaucracies, but, he says, also make decisions based on

    personal political bargaining [dictated] by the rules of the game they play . . . Decisions to wage war and sue for peace are pursued not as reflections of national interests or projections of national power, but rather because they may permit faltering authoritarian regimes renewed access to resources from the international system necessary to shore up their domestic positions.21
    Simon Bromley, a specialist in international political economy, focuses on the patterns of social formation. Degrees of liberalization and political participation occur in countries such as Egypt where capitalist development has materialized outside "the direct control of the state apparatus" with its accompanying organization of "a civil society by the bourgeoisie and the working class." In countries like Iraq and Saudi Arabia, where the state has kept control and prevented the creation of civil society, the prospects for democratic reform are limited. For Bromley, "the relative absence of democracy in the Middle East has little to do with the region's Islamic culture and much to do with its particular pattern of state formation."22

    Obviously, no single explanation can account fully for the lack of democracy in the Arab world. Privilege and power have often been used to thwart democratic growth, as have religious extremism and special interests. This pattern debases human governance, twists religious beliefs, and undermines international affairs; worse, it usually leads to aggression and repression. The circling of tradition, the sharpening of religious swords, and the improper depletion of society's wealth provide a recipe for continued violence and unfulfilled expectations. The solution rests with the promotion of democracy.
    The Journal of Democracy, which, oddly enough, in an article suggesting hope for civil society in Egypt spends most of its time detailing the lack of civil society in Arab cultures.

    A major reason for the slow and uneven pace of democratization in the region is the relative weakness of civil society. In the Arab world, less-than-vibrant civil societies have often proven incapable of consolidating democratic gains, finding themselves easily outmaneuvered and rendered ineffectual by resurgent despotisms. Algeria and the Sudan offer dramatic illustrations.
    The Carnegie Endowment for International Peace:

    The United States has for many years provided funding and training to Arab NGOs with the goal of spurring democratization, but such assistance has not achieved much in this regard. For civil society to contribute to democratic political change, a critical mass of civil society organizations must develop three main attributes: autonomy from regimes, a pro-democracy agenda, and the ability to build coalitions. Although NGOs have grown in number in the region in the past decade, these conditions have not yet been met.
    And Foreign Affairs:

    What is it about the Middle East that makes political systems there resistant to democratization? By now, a vast literature on this topic has developed, much of it emphasizing the role of Islam as an impediment to political liberalization. Norton, the editor of this volume and the director of a multiyear project on civil society in the Middle East, rejects the culturalist explanation for the scarcity of democracy and concentrates instead on the weakness of civil society where authoritarian regimes have taken root. Until political groupings that transcend family, tribe, or clan are allowed to develop, pluralistic politics of the sort that supports democracy cannot thrive. Whether one accepts this argument in full or not, this volume of excellent essays -- some previously published -- is well worth reading. In addition to several general essays, country studies on Tunisia, Jordan, Kuwait, Syria, Egypt, and the Palestinians will be found. A second volume will soon be published.

    I hope this gives you a good jumping off point for understanding some of the structural problems within Arab culture and civil society that could preclude genuine change.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 04-15-2011 at 06:33.

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    AKA Leif 3000 TURBO Senior Member Leet Eriksson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    list of websites
    I know its difficult to comprehend but your links still talk about

    Whoa

    Wait for it



    progress

    this is 2011, The Arab Spring happened this year that pretty much puts to shame alot of talking points in these articles, additionally they are old and obsolete, try better next time.

    EDIT: holy moly, these articles are truly Old. with the latest one being in 2001, no You really should go back to these books you mentioned, with real evidence this time. Yallah i'm waiting

    EDIT2: No sorry, besides the quotes, the links themselves lead to known neocon think tank organizations, Freedom House, and Middle East Quarterly in particular. Already discredited in proper discourse. Can you try something really academic and reputable this time?
    Last edited by Leet Eriksson; 04-15-2011 at 06:47.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Civil War in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Leet Eriksson View Post
    I know its difficult to comprehend but your links still talk about

    Whoa

    Wait for it



    progress

    this is 2011, The Arab Spring happened this year that pretty much puts to shame alot of talking points in these articles, additionally they are old and obsolete, try better next time.
    A book published in November of 2010 is obsolete? That is quite a hurdle, indeed.

    EDIT: holy moly, these articles are truly Old. with the latest one being in 2001, no You really should go back to these books you mentioned, with real evidence this time. Yallah i'm waiting
    You mean 2004?

    EDIT2: No sorry, besides the quotes, the links themselves lead to known neocon think tank organizations, Freedom House, and Middle East Quarterly in particular. Already discredited in proper discourse. Can you try something really academic and reputable this time?
    Like Foreign Affairs?

    Obviously calling into question the age and sources of the articles instead of their content is a well established tactic of obfuscation, but it does highlight an interesting issue. It was in fact the NeoCons who believed most strongly in the ability of the the Arab peoples to embrace democracy - so I am not sure what bearing that has on the credibility of articles published by supposedly NeoCon influenced organizations that suggest the opposite.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 04-15-2011 at 07:13.

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