V&V OOC/Signup Thread I

[_Tristan_]

Sorry, but the Emperor still needs to assert his authority on Lothar's cities and Lothar won't relinquish any florins to the Marschall... Would you pay for armies that might march against you next season ?

You cannot make a man an outlaw and expect him to respect those same laws...

Not a penny was given to the Reich from the sack of Genoa and neither will a penny be given from the sack of Milan... Lothar might be willing to negotiate a "donation" to the Reich's treasury as a sign of goodwill but nothing more...

But let's rather discuss this IC at the Tournament maybe... Guy is always available for some debate on the state of the Reich...

[Zim]

You can't act like an outlaw by ignoring the rules and then take advantage of being a normal player to steal a city from under the nose of another player.

Sorry, but the Emperor still needs to assert his authority on Lothar's cities and Lothar won't relinquish any florins to the Marschall... Would you pay for armies that might march against you next season ?

You cannot make a man an outlaw and expect him to respect those same laws...

Not a penny was given to the Reich from the sack of Genoa and neither will a penny be given from the sack of Milan... Lothar might be willing to negotiate a "donation" to the Reich's treasury as a sign of goodwill but nothing more...

But let's rather discuss this IC at the Tournament maybe... Guy is always available for some debate on the state of the Reich...

[_Tristan_]

A bit of a grey area... I'm still an Elector of the Reich (though banned from the Diet) but I wonder how the Kaiser could extend his authority on Genoa, Milan or Marseille without recourse to force of arms... Same goes for the sacking or ransom money...

It may become a casus belli but until then I think Lothar can get away with it (though I may be proven wrong by Cecil...)

As to the assault on Milan, Cecil himself conceded that it was possible though a loophole in the rules.

Anyway, I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings by acting like this... I'm rather trying to create a tense IC situation which at one point will bring one side or the other to concessions in order to make progress...

[Zim]

Then I propose pausing the game for a bit until Cecil weighs in.

Just this turn PhonicsMonkey is told he can't stop you taking a settlement from him since you're a normal elector, then you break multiple rules with no consequence. This isn't about feelings but breaking forum game rules, something I have a responsibility now to be involved in. If the rules of a game are enforced inconsistently in a game like this then we can't really play a game at all (at least not while any player is willing to take advantage). If some rules are IC and some OOC there should be more distinction so we know which ones.

[_Tristan_]

I'm fine with this of course and will follow whatever course is decided by the GM.

I do not intend to break any rules though I'm surely trying to take advantage of a loophole... To me, it makes sense IC... And from the few contacts I had with Cecil, I thought I had some kind of green light on this...

I stand corrected if that wasn't the case.

[Zim]

It's just frustrating to see one player hurt by being told he has to go by certain rules and another helped repeatedly by ignoring them. It's not at all clear which rules I need to concern myself with as a player.

[phonicsmonkey]

I agree with Zim that this situation is unfair - I can't stop Zirn from taking Milan but then he doesn't have to give any money to the Marshall? That stinks. I think I should have had an opportunity to prevent Zirn from assaulting Milan unless he was willing to declare war on me first. After all I was besieging the city - if Milanese troops can't get in or out without fighting me then surely I can stop a small force of cavalry!

And if Zirn is allowed to take settlements (by the Edict which we passed in the Diet) then he should have to pony up for the Marshall as per the game rules that we just established.

There's one thing for there to be a grey area and another for someone to exploit it so drastically to get an advantage over other players. After all, at any time Zirn has had the option to normalise his relations with the Reich (by swearing the oath) and thereby gain access to sacking florins, the ability to own settlements etc.

[The Celtic Viking]

I'm siding with Tristan on this. These tax rules are IC and it's not at all inconceivable how Lothar could refuse to pay them. He should expect some IC consequences, though.

As for taking a province for himself like that, well, if that's not a casus belli, then I'll never see one.

[_Tristan_]

I hear your arguments and see where you're both (Zim and Phonics) coming from... I don't see where I get such an "unfair" advantage... Everything Lothar owns has been bought on his own money, through his victories... He's got no access to the Reich's funds, recruitment capabilities, nor anything else... I have/he has to fend for himself with the always impending risk of being declared war upon, something which would bring him down quite quickly, I think...

I do agree that the Milan situation might seem a little (very much ?) cheesy but it is permissible under the rules... and could be justified IC (what's to prevent a small force to slip past the besiegers under the cover of night, for example ?)

I also agree that according to the rules Zirn should not be considered ruler of either Genoa nor Milan and that half his earnings should go to the Reich, but it is hardly justifiable IC. Unless Leopold steps in and declares war (though I think it is a prerogative of the Kaiser but I may be wrong on this), there is no IC reason for Lothar to recognize Imperial authority on these matters and no reasonable IC means to enforce it...

As I said earlier, I acted with what I thought was Cecil's go-ahead, I'm willing to amend if I misunderstood his words/his intentions...