The Desire To Protect "Culture"

[Rhyfelwyr]

the BNP can indeed add being left-wing to the list of its sins.

C'mon man, you know better than to throw terms like that around just for petty point scoring.

Anyway, it is a myth that white people just won't do the jobs immigrants do. Maybe you can tell that to the people I know who do all kinds of crappy unpaid work schemes for a few weeks at a time and still get no permant job out of it... basically a scam where the company recycles to the next person on Jobseekers to get an unlimiated supply of free labour. But they still go through this in the hope of getting some kind of work.

And all the while we are carting in immigrants from the Third World so big business owners can dodge the mimimum wage. I mean, this isn't even a free market issue like HoreTore is saying, we're talking about paying people illegaly low wages, which is in fact unhealthy for the economy.

This whole thread is getting surreal, why is the left-winger arguing for the free market?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Anyway, it is a myth that white people just won't do the jobs immigrants do.

Yes, that's where the Poles come in. No, seriously, the reason Poles are hired is not just because they want to work for that wage. They want to work for that wage and those hours and they don't appear to require the same benefits (health/pension/insurance). That seems odd, until you realise what you just wrote a few sentences down...

Maybe you can tell that to the people I know who do all kinds of crappy unpaid work schemes for a few weeks at a time and still get no permant job out of it... basically a scam where the company recycles to the next person on Jobseekers to get an unlimiated supply of free labour. But they still go through this in the hope of getting some kind of work.

Yes, Britain has a weird intern scheme. We all know that.

And all the while we are carting in immigrants from the Third World so big business owners can dodge the mimimum wage. I mean, this isn't even a free market issue like HoreTore is saying, we're talking about paying people illegaly low wages, which is in fact unhealthy for the economy.

That is the real issue: those Poles and other immigrants do work for conditions which border on (or are outright) illegal under your employment laws. What you don't realise is that as bad as people want jobs, Brits will quickly find out how efficient government can be if it concerns undeclared income. So they will want their employer to take care of the paperwork he is legally obliged to provide. Unless they are not British and they can almost freely dodge the whole employment law issue by virtue of being from some other place without equivalent laws; when the taxes are not due to Britain, but Poland say. The reason for this is even simpler: burden of proof. Easy to provide if you are supposed to be handed all the paperwork, less so if the paperwork is in Polish and not forthcoming.

[Noncommunist]

C'mon man, you know better than to throw terms like that around just for petty point scoring.

Anyway, it is a myth that white people just won't do the jobs immigrants do. Maybe you can tell that to the people I know who do all kinds of crappy unpaid work schemes for a few weeks at a time and still get no permant job out of it... basically a scam where the company recycles to the next person on Jobseekers to get an unlimiated supply of free labour. But they still go through this in the hope of getting some kind of work.

And all the while we are carting in immigrants from the Third World so big business owners can dodge the mimimum wage. I mean, this isn't even a free market issue like HoreTore is saying, we're talking about paying people illegaly low wages, which is in fact unhealthy for the economy.

This whole thread is getting surreal, why is the left-winger arguing for the free market?

If the wages are illegally low, that seems to be more of a problem with them charging illegally low wages, not the immigration.

[Beskar]

If the wages are illegally low, that seems to be more of a problem with them charging illegally low wages, not the immigration.

Supply and Demand. People flooding in lowers wages as people will work for cheaper.

On the otherside, in limited employment, wages rise as they need to provide incentive for people to work there.

[Noncommunist]

Supply and Demand. People flooding in lowers wages as people will work for cheaper.

On the otherside, in limited employment, wages rise as they need to provide incentive for people to work there.

Certainly, the market value would be lowered normally with more workers. However, if the government has created a price floor, then the fault is with the employers lowering wages to an illegal level.

[HoreTore]

Certainly, the market value would be lowered normally with more workers. However, if the government has created a price floor, then the fault is with the employers lowering wages to an illegal level.

Quite correct. The proce floors doesn't have to be set by the government though, it ca be negotiwted between the workers union and the employers union.

[HoreTore]

If the wages are illegally low, that seems to be more of a problem with them charging illegally low wages, not the immigration.

Indeed. The blame for that should not be on the immigrant, but on the employer. Social dumping is a serious issue, of course, and one that I haven't touched on so far ithis thread(even though the ones above seem to think I do). All businesses needs to be regulated by a tariff negotiated between the employers and the unions, and of course noone can be paid below that tariff, immigrant, pole or native.

That's not the scenario I've talked about when I've talk about "keeping wages low"(actually, it's "keeping wage growth low").

In the past decades, western europe(do I care about britistan?) has experienced tremendous growth and job creation. Without immigration, we would have next to no unemployment. Sounds like a dream, but the reality of it is quite the nightmare. What happens with too low unemployment, is that the workers gain too much power, and will use it to raise wages(too much creates the opposite problem, of course). This will cripple the export economy, which in turn will cripple the economy. What is needed, is a steady, slow and sustainable growth. For that to happen, you need to have a proper balance of power between the three parties in the labour market(worker, employ and state). What immigration does is keep that balance by limiting the otherwise unbalanced power the workers will have during times of econmic growth. Thus, immigration is vital to the economy.

If we hadn't gotten a bunch of poles here this decade, the norwegian economy would've tanked long ago, as there is no doubt that the limited supply of construction workers would've created a bubble.

Sustainable growth, the answer to every question in life.

[Banquo's Ghost]

This whole thread is getting surreal, why is the left-winger arguing for the free market?

In his own inimitable way, this is what Fragony is on about. The multiculturalist creed is so strongly in favour of unlimited immigration that they end up tying themselves in knots, even to the extent of throwing out other principles like socialist economics. Just as long as immigration can be justified without criticism.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Though, there are very few genuine lefties on this board.

[HoreTore]

In his own inimitable way, this is what Fragony is on about. The multiculturalist creed is so strongly in favour of unlimited immigration that they end up tying themselves in knots, even to the extent of throwing out other principles like socialist economics. Just as long as immigration can be justified without criticism.

The model I'm talking about has been the social democratic creed since the 60's, Banqou, long before we had any immigration.

It's also quite Keynesian, and how is that anything but true leftism? Free market... Hah! I'm arguing in favour of the three-party cooperation, just like you should expect any norwegian leftie to do.

[Fragony]

In his own inimitable way, this is what Fragony is on about. The multiculturalist creed is so strongly in favour of unlimited immigration that they end up tying themselves in knots, even to the extent of throwing out other principles like socialist economics. Just as long as immigration can be justified without criticism.

Well yeah that's about it, they keep furiously demanding both immigration and socialism. It's simply not possible someone has to haul that cart. Nothing wrong with a full stop on immigration for a few years except that some people think that's not 100% ok and might get mean

edit; and thx for understanding that I don't give a crap about immigrants themselves