non-Macedonian style Phalanx - broken?

**fomalhaut** · 05-06-2011, 06:52

The phalanx units in the style of Iphrikates, such as the Ifrikatous Hoplites, Heavy Hoplites, Alpine Phalanx and the Sacred Band seem to be pretty useless as units and completely worthless in their advertised purpose. am i using them wrong? is this a bug in my game?

My problem is; these shouldn't even be technically considered phalanx, because only the first row engages in combat. is there a way to fix this? is this how its supposed to be? because as is, when the enemy engages the first row switches to secondary weapons and essentially becomes a unit of swordsmen or axemen... which if i wanted a unit of swordsmen i would have recruited Alpine swordsmen or another more useful unit.

will removing their secondary weapons (if possible) make them use their spears and remain in a viable shield wall (its certainly not a spear wall)? because as is i don't see how these units have any sort of worth on the battlefield due to their poor stats and complete lack of any 'phalanx' traits such as being able to hold a line and have multiple rows attack at the same time.

It's the reason I have the Sacred Band for only symbolic purposes and not for any use on the battlefield.

**vollorix** · 05-06-2011, 19:20

I don´t remember how those units were supposed to be used, but let´s face some facts...
Iphikratos Hoplitai are actually very usefull:
1. Spear/Sword combination, one of the very few native units the GCS got access to
- Peltastai are sword armed, but they lack the spear - fighting cavalry isn´t very effectiv
- Hoplitai Thorakitai - the greek reformed heavy hoplites are elite units, imo, lower on menpower, and bad stamina.
2. Personally, i´ve changed their stamina to "very hardy"; they allready get the "fast moving" attribute, but, imo, they really needed a little bumb in "health"
3. These units are not regionaly restricted, iirc, are quite cheat, and also available as mercs pretty much in the whole hellenistic world

Concerning other units:
Alpine Phalanx are very usefull against Romans ( excellent morale, good stamina, decent armour, "ap" sec. weapon; they are able to hold the line as much as the flanks - anti cavalry in perfection
Heavy Hoplites ( if you mean the same i´ve mentioned above ) are quite cool too, imo; though, i´ve tweaked my EDU too much, perhaps, so that i gave them the "ap" kopis.
Sacred Band...well, i´ve never bothered to use them ( some historical flare on the battlefileld aside ), but most hoplites used sword as their secondary weapon, and the only reason the classical ones ( + some others ) do not in game is because they would switch to it every time once engaged in melee.

So, you got your diversity, and different options. GCS actually get a very good infantry roster: for any purpose there is a unit, so to say.

Just my 2 cents, cheers ;)

**fomalhaut** · 05-06-2011, 20:37

but you are talking about their purposes that are totally different than that of a phalanx. compared to Hoplite Phalanx they are worthless, a hoplite phalanx can push and use its 'many as one' mentality that is reflected in its gameplay use to annihilate a these style of phalanx. and on defense they are almost impregnable from many angles.

a real phalanx, or even German Pikemen are impenetrable from the front and can attack many enemies at once and are so much more useful than these in their stated purpose that it is a joke.

I don't want swordsmen or axemen, i want a unit who uses long spears to tie up and damage an enemy with minimal losses to my own when attacked from the front. however these units are worthless in this regard due to their immediate switching to secondary weapons and the fact that only the first line engages in combat

what are EB team members going to do about these units in EBII? Again, i don't see their purpose as being cute swordsmen with Phalanx in their name, i want a god dang phalanx. Iphrikates didn't reform Hoplites to combat Macedonian Phalanx only for them to be swordsmen, he meant them to be a mobile Phalanx with shorter spears. but as represented in game they are totally worthless except as swordsmen... but Macedonian Phalanx and Romans are already swordsmen too... and better swordsmen at that.

they don't have a use on the battlefield, i just don't see it. and i think that is a shame because some cool ass units use this animation/skeleton or whatever. The Helvetii are so freaking cool looking. Is there an easy way to animate/change them in a manner of German Pikemen? German Pikemen clearly have shorter spears than Macedonians, but long enough to engage multiple rows at the same time and tie up an enemy. I don't know the specifics but when the Iphriaktous Hoplite is explained to me in text it seems more like the German Pikemen (though with shorter tips) than big shield wearing swordsmen

Exhibit A) - notice first row engages only, and with swords. Also notice in background the veteran Massilian Hoplites who by far are more useful but it's cheap to have a wall of them. They only use spears due to EDU tweaks

**gamegeek2** · 05-06-2011, 22:32

Play on BI.exe where you have shieldwall and these units can function LIKE a phalanx.

**fomalhaut** · 05-07-2011, 03:05

i am using ALEX for stability and speed.

is this the only way to make them useful?

**A_Dane** · 05-08-2011, 13:37

By "Sacred band" do you mean distinguished hoplites?

**strategos roma** · 05-14-2011, 08:27

Originally Posted by fomalhaut

The phalanx units in the style of Iphrikates, such as the Ifrikatous Hoplites, Heavy Hoplites, Alpine Phalanx and the Sacred Band seem to be pretty useless as units and completely worthless in their advertised purpose. am i using them wrong? is this a bug in my game?

My problem is; these shouldn't even be technically considered phalanx, because only the first row engages in combat. is there a way to fix this? is this how its supposed to be? because as is, when the enemy engages the first row switches to secondary weapons and essentially becomes a unit of swordsmen or axemen... which if i wanted a unit of swordsmen i would have recruited Alpine swordsmen or another more useful unit.

will removing their secondary weapons (if possible) make them use their spears and remain in a viable shield wall (its certainly not a spear wall)? because as is i don't see how these units have any sort of worth on the battlefield due to their poor stats and complete lack of any 'phalanx' traits such as being able to hold a line and have multiple rows attack at the same time.

It's the reason I have the Sacred Band for only symbolic purposes and not for any use on the battlefield.

Do you mean the Greek bodyguards, the Epilektoi when you talk about the Heavy Hoplites? Because IIRC they don't have swords at all and just act like normal hoplites. The Iphikratou and Alpine phalanx are a bit problematic and I've noticed the same problem more than once so I don't use them a lot although the latter is actually a great unit. In my campaigns, the Sacred Band acts pretty normally but then I've only used them a few times. Actually, the best way to solve this rather annoying problem is by putting them in a line, leave guard mode on and wait for the enemy to attack you. Don't advance to meet them and I find that sometimes they do behave normally.

**fomalhaut** · 05-14-2011, 08:39

im talking only the non hoplite phalanx, so no epilektoi hoplitai.

mostly my issue is that only the first rows engage, and there is no viable shield or spear wall, even guard mode turned on a unit will pass through. run a horseman toward a pike phalanx? dead. toward a hoplite phalanx? dead. through an Iphrikatous phalanx? just fine

**Sylon** · 05-15-2011, 08:03

To get a unit to switch back to its primary weapon, select the unit and right click (as opposed to Alt+right click) on whatever you wish to attack. For example, if you have a unit of Iphikratous Hoplites engaged with a unit of cavalry and they happen to be using swords, simply select them and right click on the cavalry unit they are already engaged with. This will cause them to swap back to their spears.

**SFraser** · 06-04-2011, 05:59

It's a frustrating issue but can be resolved with a bit of attention.

The problem is that when an individual soldier is knocked down he will switch back to his primary weapon, so if his primary is a sword then you can end up with a front using swords and the rest of the unit thinking it is using spears.

Clicking ALT to use secondary weapons wont work because the unit is already using secondary weapons, so they wont change. So attack them with primary weapons and then use ALT to attack with secondary weapons.

Lots of units that come with sword/spear combinations and different formation densities, and particularly different enemy types, suffer from this at first glance abject uselessness. However it's just a case of making sure you use the right tool for the job and you are aware of the fact that your unit will switch weapons as soldiers are knocked down.

Once you get the hang of it they work fine, albeit are a bit more micro management intense than is ideal.

**vollorix** · 06-07-2011, 13:19

@SFraser: maybe i´m kind of blind, i can see all the units with sword/spear combination switching to their secondary and not primary weapon when beeing knocked down ( they fight with spears instead of swords in melee ). There are also some other problems i´ve noticed:
1. you can force those units to switch back to swords for a while ( using the trick you described above, or puting them in guard mod for a second, then releasing them ), but after a while they do not react any more; once a unit is heavily depleted and exausted, the soldiers won´t fight with swords, but with spears only...
2. the entire unit, except from the front line, is using swords, but all the soldiers in the first rank are using spears, since they have been knocked down during the fight, while the others weren´t.

The only solution that comes to my mind is to give those units ( which are mostly elite anyway ), a rediculous high defence skill to make it very hard to get knocked down; right now i´m experimenting with EDU changing their recruitment time up to 4 turns - that way the AI won´t mass crank them, i hope.

EDIT: could one attach a different sceleton to all the units using the sword/spear combination, for example that of druids/cardinau orca, but keep their appearance on the battlefield? And if yes, is it enough to do the changes in the EDU + dmb?