Europe Day

[Banquo's Ghost]

Rewrite the bailout terms now or we revoke Jedwards citzenship stranding them on the continent forever mwah ha ha ha ha ha

If only.

Haven't we suffered enough?

[gaelic cowboy]

Ah no. Now you made me Google that. Curse you!

I really would pay 86 billion just to be able to unsee this mess, unworthy of a universe with even the remotest chance of a living god or a single innocent soul.

If only they had been christened Peter and Rick

[Furunculus]

Mindnumbing stupity, halogen lamps, and debates about issues no sane person understands such as common agricultural policy and currency / sovereign debt. It is all so beautiful in its cleverness.

Europe shall have peace forever. Peace as long as we can channel the energy of the amorphous masses towards these diversions, and divert the malcontent of the 'Angry Men' towards nonsense symbolic strife over flags and anthems and 0.42% of our budget.

One would want to re-instate grand ideology or religion for the same effect, but there's no consensus about which one, nor ought there to be any, because strife and competition is precisely Europe's strenght, it's dynamism. So what could be more clever than to maintain strife but divert unwanted offspill into gayfabulous infights about national contestants of a songfestival.

bread and circuses?

[Furunculus]

denmark deserves credit too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opt-out...an_Union#Table

those cheeky danes, they do love a good jape:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...on-crisis.html

[Fragony]

those cheeky danes, they do love a good jape:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...on-crisis.html

Good for them and we are going to do the same, the EU clearly isn't interested in the national interests of it's members, the political union eurocrat apparatski's crave MUSS SEIN even if it has to be built on the rubbles of their disastrous socialism

[Subotan]

those cheeky danes, they do love a good jape:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...on-crisis.html

Sixty years of work rests on a knife edge! The threat of waves of emigrants to from the North African coast to Europe pales in comparison to the actions of petty, small-minded and reckless nationalists who would exploit such an issue to drag Europe into chaos.

[Furunculus]

introducing border controls would drag europe into chaos..............!

i wasn't aware that you followed the rompoy'ite doctrine of imminent mass nazification should federal union not continue its 'inexorable' slide?

[a completely inoffensive name]

More mercury is pumped into the air on average by a power plant powering incandescent bulbs than the potential mercury that could be released in your house in a single CFL. If you want to reduce mercury dangers, buy CFL's and just make sure you don't break them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Me...e_EPA_2008.svg

[a completely inoffensive name]

I'm absolutely not afraid of new technology, I love new technology, but only if new means better.
It does actually happen that new turns out to be worse or not entirely thought through, and then it's perfectly reasonable to oppose it.

The new is actually overall better than the old. Cheap CFL's still need to wait a few minutes to reach full light intensity but other than that it really isn't that bad.

I just mentioned one, they emit poisonous gases. Nothing that will outright kill you and I haven't taken out mine, but I'm not very fond of things that kill me in the long run.
And they do take longer to turn on, I replaced the lightbulb in my bathroom with a CFL and it takes several minutes until it has reached it's full potential, at first the bathroom is still somewhat dark.
Plus, they die faster if you turn them on and off, the 10 years or however many hours it says on the package may be true if you never turn them off. I had to replace one lately that I bought maybe 3-5 years ago. That's not even half of the 10 years they advertise on the package and it was on a lamp that i hardly turned on in the last two years as well.
Not exactly what I would consider superior technology, all my hopes rest on LEDs now but so far they seem to cost 20€ and upwards if you want anything more than a decorative one that cannot light up an entire room and I had some problems finding ones that fit into my lamps, most of them have weird connectors.

Send a link about that poisonous gas emissions that is in English. My translator isn't working. Also a report from one lab does not equal proven fact. This needs to be verified and double checked by multiple independent laboratories before you can start saying "it produces poisonous gases" as a fact.

The concept that it is releasing gas does not make sense to me period. It can't be gas within it because if there was a leak the CFL would not work anymore. The only thing it produces is light. The only I can think of is that perhaps some crappy CFL's have toxic paint covers that are used to "soften" the light output that might be getting vaporized by the heat produced after a while.

Your anecdotal evidence about your CFL isn't really compelling. Idk if you bought a cheap one or not or if it was just a dud or if your own bias is reluctant in remembering the times you turned it on and off to reinforce your perception of the CFL technology.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Sorry about this triple post, I didn't see how many posts about CFL's there actually were until I started posting.

Concerning the rest, in the 70ies or so teachers here were expected to get x-rayed several times a year or so as part of regular health checks. By now it's known that x-rays are quite unhealthy if you get a whole lot of them, very similar to being subjected to radiation in fact. If everybody had had your attitude, who knows how many people would've died because of it?

It was known back then that getting a lot of x-rays could be detrimental. The problem is that there is no clear cut "line" on how much radiation is too much. It is fuzzy today and was even fuzzier back then resulting in the example you provided. There are benchmarks where certain amounts of radiation start to produce notable side effects up to death. However the range up to those points is still fuzzy. There is not a solid line that says "If x amount of radiation then you have certainly doubled your risk of cancer." There are standard deviations that vary between if it was doubled, or 1.5x or 2.5x etc...

I don't believe that cellphones can kill you, but they may cause some health problems in the long run, to claim that something that emits electromagnetic waves has no effect on anything other than another such communication device is quite absurd, just look at the connection to bees.

This unfortunately is completely wrong, not to be disrespectful. In the first place something that poses a hazardous threat to other creatures does not make it hazardous to humans by any means. Mice and animal testing for drugs or new techniques always has to be followed by human testing to see if it is actually viable in humans with human physiological systems.

Secondly, if you read the article you just posted you can see clearly what makes your point invalid. The case given in the article says that the electromagnetic waves emitted are confusing the bees from returning to their hive and thereby promotes a hive collapse. The waves are interfering with one of their "senses" essentially. This would be the equivalent of cell phones producing a frequency that somehow interferes with our ability to detect the visible light range which is also electromagnetic radiation. It is not causing actual physical "damage" it is merely interfering with the bees perception and thus disrupts its life.

Cell phone transmissions do not cross anywhere near the territory of ionizing radiation which is the kind that triggers cancer. It is entirely within the category of "non-ionizing" radiation and is completely harmless to us because it is not disrupting our sight nor giving us cancer. The bees are an unfortunate victim because we happened to choose the band of frequencies that they just happen to reply upon to guide themselves around.

So basically I don't see why I should be forced to use something that is proven to emit carcinogenic gases in order to "save the environment".
And if I drop it and it breaks, I have to evacuate the area because it has heavy metals in it.
You know, I'm all for saving the environment, but not if it has a high chance of killing or hurting me.

Except there isn't a high chance of it killing you. You are greatly overestimating the threat with flimsy reports and incomplete information.

[Husar]

The new is actually overall better than the old. Cheap CFL's still need to wait a few minutes to reach full light intensity but other than that it really isn't that bad.

The one in my bathroom is from Osram and it certainly wasn't cheap, it still takes about 3 minutes to reach full intensity, which is a difference between a dimly lit and a bright white room. I also heard that they don't nearly last 10 years if you turn them off and on somewhat often, which is underlined by the one in my living room failing after less than 5 years. I'm not sure, but it's even possible that I had to replace them a few years ago already.
How often I turned it on and off shouldn't matter because on the package it says they last about 10 years, so if they break after about half that time that's pretty weird.
I didn't change anything to suit my perception of CFLs, I've got a new lamp that I use almost exclusively now, it's also got CFLs by the way.

You're also right that one laboratory doesn't prove a thing but if there is a rumour of that sort, the EU should be checking it or prove it wrong if they have already checked for such problems´ as long as they want to force us to use CFLs.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The one in my bathroom is from Osram and it certainly wasn't cheap, it still takes about 3 minutes to reach full intensity, which is a difference between a dimly lit and a bright white room. I also heard that they don't nearly last 10 years if you turn them off and on somewhat often, which is underlined by the one in my living room failing after less than 5 years. I'm not sure, but it's even possible that I had to replace them a few years ago already.
How often I turned it on and off shouldn't matter because on the package it says they last about 10 years, so if they break after about half that time that's pretty weird.
I didn't change anything to suit my perception of CFLs, I've got a new lamp that I use almost exclusively now, it's also got CFLs by the way.

You're also right that one laboratory doesn't prove a thing but if there is a rumour of that sort, the EU should be checking it or prove it wrong if they have already checked for such problems´ as long as they want to force us to use CFLs.

The life expectancy is always going to be an average under ideal conditions. I really don't know what to say other than you might have gotten a dud not representative of the average CFL bulb.

The difference in quality from CFL's 10-5 years ago is probably different than the quality of CFL's today. The public transition did not occur until this past decade so the standards might not have been exactly up to par as they should have been.

[Populus Romanus]

Europe sucks.

You all can continue with your EU stuff so long as you bury your heads in the sand and ignore the obvious, that America owns Europe.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Europe sucks.

You all can continue with your EU stuff so long as you bury your heads in the sand and ignore the obvious, that America owns Europe.

"Gee ACIN, why do you act like you are so embarrassed of America all the time?"

[Husar]

The difference in quality from CFL's 10-5 years ago is probably different than the quality of CFL's today. The public transition did not occur until this past decade so the standards might not have been exactly up to par as they should have been.

You compare the difference in quality to the quality and uhm?

Ok, joking about a hickup aside, it's not always true that quality increases over time, the higher demand and the attempts to cut costs to offer things cheaper, stay more competitive and/or get more profit can often lead to a decline in product quality. Compare a power drill from 15 years ago to one of the cheap, plastic ones they sell for 20 bucks today, for example, heck, my dad has one that is older than me and it still works better than some of his newer ones. Similar trends can be found in the graphics card market, where demand for more graphics power and lower prices drives the quality of parts down which causes them to be louder and a few other problems. NVidia had used some cheaper materials for a while which lead to a huge problem with loads and loads of chips failing because the heat would slowly make them fall apart.

As such I wouldn't find it surprising if the cheap glue they use in China would emit gases once the bulb becomes hot, that one of the manufacturers wanted to investigate the problem would make one think that they don't find this report as incredible as you do. Incidentally I just managed to find an english article on it.

Europe sucks.

You all can continue with your EU stuff so long as you bury your heads in the sand and ignore the obvious, that America owns Europe.

[Fragony]

The life expectancy is always going to be an average under ideal conditions. I really don't know what to say other than you might have gotten a dud not representative of the average CFL bulb.

The difference in quality from CFL's 10-5 years ago is probably different than the quality of CFL's today. The public transition did not occur until this past decade so the standards might not have been exactly up to par as they should have been.

Who cares, it isn't about lightbulbs it's about someones pet-project that MUSS SEIN. Nobody understands why, and by who, but in true DDR fashion it was imposed

[a completely inoffensive name]

You compare the difference in quality to the quality and uhm?

Lol yeah, 1AM typing at it's best.

Ok, joking about a hickup aside, it's not always true that quality increases over time, the higher demand and the attempts to cut costs to offer things cheaper, stay more competitive and/or get more profit can often lead to a decline in product quality. Compare a power drill from 15 years ago to one of the cheap, plastic ones they sell for 20 bucks today, for example, heck, my dad has one that is older than me and it still works better than some of his newer ones. Similar trends can be found in the graphics card market, where demand for more graphics power and lower prices drives the quality of parts down which causes them to be louder and a few other problems. NVidia had used some cheaper materials for a while which lead to a huge problem with loads and loads of chips failing because the heat would slowly make them fall apart.

Kinda, sorta, maybe. When the market expands dramatically, shortcuts are done to fulfill the demand as soon as possible. When the market is entering a slower growth as people are generally transitioning from incandescent to CFL's growth is slower, more manageable and shortcuts are not as implemented as much. Since the old bulbs are banned, the real thing to look at is how fast the demand within the CFL market has expanded.

Also, looking back on past products is only somewhat useful as well. The only stuff that can stick around after decades of use is the well crafted stuff. Planned obsolescence and cheap manufacturing isn't some new thing to happen since the 1980s. If we look far enough back into the depths of video game history, we can obviously see that the vast majority of games on the N64 were not all the same quality as Zelda, Goldeneye, Mario 64 etc... it is an error to say that video games were much better way back in the day because of games x, y and z while ignoring all the crappy ones lost to time just as it is a mistake to say that bulbs or power tools were way better back in the day because x,y and z tools I have.

As such I wouldn't find it surprising if the cheap glue they use in China would emit gases once the bulb becomes hot, that one of the manufacturers wanted to investigate the problem would make one think that they don't find this report as incredible as you do. Incidentally I just managed to find an english article on it.

I thank you for the English article but it still lacked heavily on facts. Specifically what the actual findings were. All it said was some germans found these nasty chemicals and that the british are telling everyone everything is still fine. What exact is producing these chemicals? How are they emitted? It's hard to trust a report that doesn't actually provide a report but instead is a vague two sentence warning.

Who cares, it isn't about lightbulbs it's about someones pet-project that MUSS SEIN. Nobody understands why, and by who, but in true DDR fashion it was imposed

Stop being so conspiratorial Frag. The situation is completely clear and only someone who is ideologically blinded cannot see how the day to day politics actually occurs.

Why: Because Europe and the US are sick of being dependent on foreign oil and lawmakers want to look good to public about attempting to do something about it.
Who: Lawmakers that have been successfully lobbied by environmental special interests, CFL manufacturers and/or those who feel that drastic action needs to be taken about the greater issues surrounding the light bulb situation such as energy efficiency and climate change.

CFL's really are a whole lot more efficient than incandescent, it is almost disgusting how much energy the old light bulbs waste. If it saves energy, than it reduces oil consumption, if it does that, then it is in the nation's long term interest to promote it.

Cue, "leftist cult", "random Nazi term" or some sort of conspiracy insinuation.

[Populus Romanus]

"Gee ACIN, why do you act like you are so embarrassed of America all the time?"

But really, consider how independant Europe really is. I am sure the United States could get a country like Bosnia which owes its very existence to us to commit hiri-kiri with a smile on its face. And honestly, almost all of Western Europe owes its existence to the United States. One can clearly see a multitude of ways in which the United States controls and runs Europe: NATO is effectively an American figurehead, especially after the Cold War, after the Cold War the UN has but one superpower to lead it (The UN is even based in the United States!), and countless treaties and alliances between European countries and the United States bind Europe in servitude to the United States.

[a completely inoffensive name]

But really, consider how independant Europe really is. I am sure the United States could get a country like Bosnia which owes its very existence to us to commit hiri-kiri with a smile on its face. And honestly, almost all of Western Europe owes its existence to the United States. One can clearly see a multitude of ways in which the United States controls and runs Europe: NATO is effectively an American figurehead, especially after the Cold War, after the Cold War the UN has but one superpower to lead it (The UN is even based in the United States!), and countless treaties and alliances between European countries and the United States bind Europe in servitude to the United States.

A. No, Bosnia would never do it precisely because it doesn't depend on us for it's existence. If they refuse, we can't bomb them.
B. And all of America owes its existence to Western Europe (it's ideals, the French in Revolutionary War etc...)
C. The UN is not controlled by the US by any means, China and Russia often love to troll us since they are on the security council and can veto anything they don't like.
D. What treaties? Name them.

[Louis VI the Fat]

But really, consider how independant Europe really is. I am sure the United States could get a country like Bosnia which owes its very existence to us to commit hiri-kiri with a smile on its face. And honestly, almost all of Western Europe owes its existence to the United States. One can clearly see a multitude of ways in which the United States controls and runs Europe: NATO is effectively an American figurehead, especially after the Cold War, after the Cold War the UN has but one superpower to lead it (The UN is even based in the United States!), and countless treaties and alliances between European countries and the United States bind Europe in servitude to the United States.

Yay! I get to argue in the other thread that Europe is not under the jackboot of international socialism and the USSR. And I get to argue in this thread that Europe is not under the jackboot of international capitalism and the US!




Now you'll have to excuse me - I'm off to the threads 'Europe - under the jackboot of international zionism', and 'Europe - the Islamic Caliphate'.

[Strike For The South]

But really, consider how independant Europe really is. I am sure the United States could get a country like Bosnia which owes its very existence to us to commit hiri-kiri with a smile on its face. And honestly, almost all of Western Europe owes its existence to the United States. One can clearly see a multitude of ways in which the United States controls and runs Europe: NATO is effectively an American figurehead, especially after the Cold War, after the Cold War the UN has but one superpower to lead it (The UN is even based in the United States!), and countless treaties and alliances between European countries and the United States bind Europe in servitude to the United States.

Without German manpower NATO would've stood on clay feet the whole cold war. That's just off the top off my head

IEurope has many shortcomings, most of which have been transplanted on the wider world due to the fact Eruope decided to play risk for a couple of centuries....Granted who wouldn't? Still, I will forever remain envious of Europe for one thing. The rather simple ability to carry on. For 50 years continental Europe knew it would be turned into a roach hotel had the cold war turned hot and they simply carried on. America has a couple of medium range, underpowered nukes put in its backyard and everyone LOSES THEIR MIND.

This ability to take everything in stride carriess over into all facets of life. America is the queen of melodrama, if we aren't wondering how we are going to die we are wondering how our God will judge us when we die. It's rediculos.

I just want to drink, listen to myself sound like and intellectual, and have relations with women whom also love the fine art of bulldaisy.

Is that to much to ask?

[Strike For The South]

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[Subotan]

I have an essay to write, but it shouldn't take long to demolish this.

But really, consider how independent Europe really is.

Allies != Subjects

I am sure the United States could get a country like Bosnia which owes its very existence to us to commit hiri-kiri with a smile on its face.

By "smile on its face", you mean about another 100,000 dead, correct?

And honestly, almost all of Western Europe owes its existence to the United States.

Strawman. Nobody is arguing this.

One can clearly see a multitude of ways in which the United States controls and runs Europe

You gave one, NATO. The USA has no more impact on policy making at either the EU level or the nation state level than the EU or European states have on the USA.

: NATO is effectively an American figurehead, especially after the Cold War

Then why are all the Europeans getting out of Afghanistan faster than you can say "Screw you guys, we're going home"?

After the Cold War the UN has but one superpower to lead it

The brief flash of undisputed American global hegemony is over. Welcome back to a multi-polar world!

(The UN is even based in the United States!)

No-one cares.

Countless treaties and alliances between European countries and the United States bind Europe in servitude to the United States.

Have you ever considered the possibility that they bind you in submission to us?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Without German manpower NATO would've stood on clay feet the whole cold war. That's just off the top off my head

IEurope has many shortcomings, most of which have been transplanted on the wider world due to the fact Eruope decided to play risk for a couple of centuries....Granted who wouldn't? Still, I will forever remain envious of Europe for one thing. The rather simple ability to carry on. For 50 years continental Europe knew it would be turned into a roach hotel had the cold war turned hot and they simply carried on. America has a couple of medium range, underpowered nukes put in its backyard and everyone LOSES THEIR MIND.

This ability to take everything in stride carriess over into all facets of life. America is the queen of melodrama, if we aren't wondering how we are going to die we are wondering how our God will judge us when we die. It's rediculos.

I just want to drink, listen to myself sound like and intellectual, and have relations with women whom also love the fine art of bulldaisy.

Is that to much to ask?

Meh, Europeans know that wars are won and lost all the time. You lose, another family is installed to rule over you, you change the flags in the attic, and out you go waving like a madman at the latest family to use your tax money for their personal enrichment. It is customary to shed tears of happiness when they marry or have babies.

This is why it all went wrong in the twentieth century. The Germans have no sense of humour. So when they lose a war, all hell breaks lose, because they can't cope. And when they win a war, they think it should be to the complete annihilation of their opponent. These are breaches with the finest of European traditions.
The Russians are perhaps most of all still true to the European peasantry tradition of stoicism about which strong man is this time raising himself to überape over all the eye can see. There's always a new strong man next year, they've seen it all. Or perhaps the Russians are simply drunk most of the time. You'd be a hit with drunk semi-intellectuals and hot girls in a Paris philosophy bar. You sound loaded and easy to extract at least several rounds of drinks from as long as the girls curl themselves all over you.

[Fragony]

@ACIN, ain't conspiracy if it's right in the open, a political union is what the apparatski's are after. Did we ask for it, no. Do we want it, thought we made that clear. Do we need it, not at all.

[a completely inoffensive name]

@ACIN, ain't conspiracy if it's right in the open, a political union is what the apparatski's are after. Did we ask for it, no. Do we want it, thought we made that clear. Do we need it, not at all.

I thought you said and I quote,
"Nobody understands why, and by who, but in true DDR fashion it was imposed."

But now it is all in the open and it is clear the why is for the formation of a political union?

[Fragony]

I thought you said and I quote,
"Nobody understands why, and by who, but in true DDR fashion it was imposed."

But now it is all in the open and it is clear the why is for the formation of a political union?

That's the mentality, the political union the consequence, and the consequence is the goal. The euro is a political weapon that goes from kneedeep to up to your neck, it's not just the redistribution of wealth from north to south but also legitimising institutions that carve out our sovereignty in the name of stability. The more is at stake the deeper we are in.

[a completely inoffensive name]

That's the mentality, the political union the consequence, and the consequence is the goal. The euro is a political weapon that goes from kneedeep to up to your neck, it's not just the redistribution of wealth from north to south but also legitimising institutions that carve out our sovereignty in the name of stability. The more is at stake the deeper we are in.

And the first steps of all this dangerous concentration of power...is the ban of incandescent light bulbs?

[Subotan]

First they came for the light bulbs, and I did not speak out as I wasn't a light bulb

[Fragony]

And the first steps of all this dangerous concentration of power...is the ban of incandescent light bulbs?

No that's just the mentality, that one is only very very annoying