Guns are too strong or not?

**Sp00n** · 05-18-2011, 09:30

Its seems that most matches now are developing into large missile encounters with most players taking a combined 6-8 missiles, you only have to look at the Tosa Cup matches, I think missiles in general are overpowered personally I don't think its just down to guns, upgraded bows are also pretty sick.

**Kocmoc** · 05-18-2011, 10:16

Originally Posted by Sp00n

Its seems that most matches now are developing into large missile encounters with most players taking a combined 6-8 missiles, you only have to look at the Tosa Cup matches, I think missiles in general are overpowered personally I don't think its just down to guns, upgraded bows are also pretty sick.

Yes, bows are also pretty powerful, Imo the bows are even more of a problem, than the guns. We need the guns to stop the rush, we dont need bows for that!

**AggonyKing** · 05-18-2011, 17:42

Originally Posted by Kocmoc

Yes, bows are also pretty powerful, Imo the bows are even more of a problem, than the guns. We need the guns to stop the rush, we dont need bows for that!

when you can wield 200 range monks vs 100 range guns (and at 125range they hardly kill anything) I would say worry bout bows instead :D

I love shooting the guns from far far away :)

**Kocmoc** · 05-18-2011, 17:52

Originally Posted by AggonyKing

when you can wield 200 range monks vs 100 range guns (and at 125range they hardly kill anything) I would say worry bout bows instead :D

I love shooting the guns from far far away :)

Especially as your bows really kill quick!

**AggonyKing** · 05-18-2011, 18:02

Originally Posted by Kocmoc

Especially as your bows really kill quick!

ya i'm pretty sure if we do test of reload and shooting speed bows will come out on top (as they should)

even though guns have the most shock when fired, bows have a way faster kill rate. As soon as guns close in if you focus your bows on those guns its game over for the guns.

**HighFistRW** · 05-19-2011, 00:01

Hi All,
its been awhile since i have posted anywhere :) but i have returned to playing S2 after several years break and i dont see a problem with guns atm, i dont look at stats to much and would call myself a moderate player who plays for fun or running away mostly lol..... i have found that if you can take out the guns early with bows then it usually levels out as most peeps i come acroos filed 3 bows 2-3 guns rest cav & inf. i do miss the old fashioned chain routes of the stw days and often think good god how is that unit that is surrounded not running away but have learnt that vets etc have more stay puff and am coming to terms with new dynamics... at present i think that some players who like me on my return are a little taken aback that the dynamics have changed.. hope that makes sense all.

oh and hello again to all that remeber me

**UglyJun** · 05-19-2011, 02:01

welcome back UglyFist nice u made it back :)

**Orda Khan** · 05-29-2011, 11:27

Originally Posted by Sp00n

Its seems that most matches now are developing into large missile encounters with most players taking a combined 6-8 missiles, you only have to look at the Tosa Cup matches, I think missiles in general are overpowered personally I don't think its just down to guns, upgraded bows are also pretty sick.

Hello Sp00n,
I have to agree mate. I've looked at the replays and it seems a good supply of muskets and bows will practically wipe out advancing units before they make contact, or if they do (highly depleted) they waver/route in an instant.
Whatever the problem: range, accuracy, lethality, reload, morale shock, (probably all) range units are proving to be too important.

**Cu'Roi** · 05-30-2011, 02:47

i think it's clear that guns are definitely not underpowered. they are also a unit u must take every game, other types are not so necessary in so many situations as guns are. but if they are overpowered? it's really hard to say. rushing is possible in this game but conditions must be right. in fact 2 different types of rush can work in this game. to me this is good. if you did reduce some of the stats for matchlocks, it would be best to do it only very slightly, otherwise rushers will have too easy of a time, imo.

i have talked about this before, and it's sort of off topic so i wont go into detail here, but in the absence of gametypes, it's hard to balance the game. this game doesn't need 20 different game types like the fantasy game Myth had, but 2-3 game types other than just last man alive would benefit the game, and open up more roles for more units if done tastefully and properly tested.

**Tempiic** · 05-30-2011, 08:17

Ever since the first TW, balance always suffered from the upgrade system. Now we're playing with vets, in which we have more control about how and what we upgrade. I cannot say I am surprised. It does not matter either when we get our guns or bows balanced again, then something else will became OP thanks to veterancy&upgrades. Honestly, it is not really unvetted guns&bows that cause this issue.

**Paolai** · 05-30-2011, 09:10

Originally Posted by Orda Khan

Hello Sp00n,
I have to agree mate. I've looked at the replays and it seems a good supply of muskets and bows will practically wipe out advancing units before they make contact, or if they do (highly depleted) they waver/route in an instant.

Do not advance too early then. Work with your shooters, do the job on the side you think it is better to attack. Surely you have to have strong shooters aswell.
An army with 4/5 strong and upgraded shooters can beat an army of 8/9 "weak" shooters maybe also more. And then the H2H it is quite easy.

**Sp00n** · 05-30-2011, 12:16

Originally Posted by Paolai

Do not advance too early then. Work with your shooters, do the job on the side you think it is better to attack. Surely you have to have strong shooters aswell.
An army with 4/5 strong and upgraded shooters can beat an army of 8/9 "weak" shooters maybe also more. And then the H2H it is quite easy.

My army isnt the issue, I have plenty of upgraded Bow Monks and all types of Guns, I'm just saying they are all overpowered, its a melee era being dominated by missiles.

**Paolai** · 05-30-2011, 13:02

Imho till you cannot win with just shooters if your opponent plays well and with a balance army, it means that shooters are not unbalanced. If you go to fild an army with just Ashi archers, yes, it very difficult to win vs a lot of guns. If you have 3/4 strong archers and 1 good gun (rest all inf and cavs) you will have imho no problems at all.
Also in STW1/MI musks were deadly especially if well fielded. They were different agreed, but deadly aswell. Imho the game is just new and sometimes all of us go in panic. If you have to approach an opponent with a lot of musks take your time and hit/push with your strong archers where you want to attack. Assuming that you have strong archers fielded.

**Papewaio** · 06-06-2011, 11:51

Well at least something causes morale to be triggered. I think the problem is not the guns, its the too high general morale, making only guns have an obvious effect (not so obvious is the how quickly units collapse once surrounded or non spears charged down by cav). It does feel harsh charging a unit to turn tail half way there. Why do my sprites have to be so sensible, it's only like half their unit thats dead...

**Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout** · 06-07-2011, 13:21

Yep,an army with 2 Matchlock can quite easily beat any army.

**ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88** · 06-07-2011, 14:44

It seems now that, no matter if I do something stupid like banzai rush a matchlock army, or if I try turning their flanks or whatever, it seems their matchlocks kill the unit ASAP.