The Campground [Concluded]

[Andres]

Something about this pair of posts struck me as unnatural coming from Andres. I can't put it into words well, I'm too tired. Just if Andres really was considering GE as scum, why does he bounce off onto ATPG and Chaotix (one of a hypothetically scummy GE's scapegoats, by the way) instead of following up on the implications regarding GE? If he does do that, why preface it with "also" (implying a continuation which is not there) instead of something something like "although", as you might expect if someone had actually just had a drastic shift in their train of thought?

It looks more like the underlying thought process might be "hmm, I could paint GE as scummy, anyone else?" ... "ooh, ATPG and Chaotix might work too". That does have the continuation implied by that "also".

Yeah, I realize I've dropped to a new low here, suspecting someone on the basis of one word.

I sometimes do that. Thinking out loud. G_E's posts did sound scummy.

You're reading a lot in that 'also'. I edited my post. I said one thing, minutes later, I also wanted to say another thing.

I admit to be guilty of usually not addressing the stronger parts of my opponents case and hitting hard on the weaker parts, making sure the stronger parts of the opponents' case don't get too much attention. Sorry

[TheLastDays]

Now this I don't get, after all the case(s) you brought forward you won't vote for ATPG but rather for someone who you have a gut feeling for?
I'm not saying that I'm sure ATPG is scum, rather I have a hard time buying your arguments, Andres...

[Renata]

Likewise.

Andres, why did you change your vote during the DE/Chaotix runoff?

[Andres]

Now this I don't get, after all the case(s) you brought forward you won't vote for ATPG but rather for someone who you have a gut feeling for?
I'm not saying that I'm sure ATPG is scum, rather I have a hard time buying your arguments, Andres...

I value my gut feelings higher than my ability to analyse posts and behaviour.

So, for all the talk about ATPG, I will first follow my gut feeling against Scienter.

[Andres]

Likewise.

Andres, why did you change your vote during the DE/Chaotix runoff?

ATPG asked me that question too and I already answered it.

My Chaotix vote was a 'logical' follow-up of my previous joke post. Then I voted D_E because he was around and said he was a liar. As I said, I wasn't very active had the time and hadn't been following the game closely, so I was fine with any of those two lynched. Fate decided I had to vote Diamondeye. If Chaotix would have posted after that interaction, I might have switched back to him again for being too noisy.

[Renata]

Thing is I sort of agree with your "gut feel" on Scienter, but I want you lynched as well. If I were looking for the sort of unserious mutual bussing you originally accused AtPG and Chaotix of anywhere else, it would be you and Scienter. You give her a nice friendly poke on day two, she eventually votes you back (way late in the day, no consequences). There was nothing between you on day three IIRC. I have not yet reviewed day four, really, was there anythign there?

[Andres]

, but I want you lynched as well.

Again? Why do you hate me?

[Renata]

Answered my own question: at 4 votes chaotix to 2 or so on GE (and none on scienter), Andres switched to Scienter on the basis of a gut feeling, making it 4-1. Khaan went with the gut feeling, and AtPG later switched from Chaotix to Scienter to produce the 3-way tie.

Hmm, not sure. At the moment I'd be roughly equally happy with either Andres or Scienter being lynched.

[Renata]

Again? Why do you hate me?

:D

Why were you advocating Scienter and ATPG as scum partners last night when ATPG put her into an end-of-day tie for the lead? What reasoning? (Skimmed most of last night, still catching up really.)

[Askthepizzaguy]

Vote: Andres

Then Chaotix. Or, Chaotix, then Andres. Either one is perfectly acceptable to me.

[johnhughthom]

Vote: Andres

I'm pretty sure the key to our scum is somewhere in that three way tie. Andres vote switch was the action that stuck out most to me.

[Reenk Roink]

Can you tell us why you think Atpg is innocent please?

Also what do you think of john here. He rouses my suspicion for some reason. I would have killed him already if I was Mafia.

@Reenk

Yes, Pizza has put Chaotix into the tie. One of the reasons I don't think they're scumbuddies and why I said it's probably option b), Chaotix is Pizza's scapegoat.

I never made a case against Scienter. I've always said it was a strong gut feeling.

Hmm, fair enough on the evasion part then.

But now I find your case to be really contrived. I mean, Atpg and Chaotix have this clear connection but it is because Atpg wants to use it as a screen for Scienter. Also, if this is what you think, why aren't you voting for Atpg. Certainly he's been flagged more, already has a vote on him, and will be an easier lynch than Scienter who probably won't get a big showing given the thing with you and Atpg/Chaotix.

[Scienter]

I missed a lot while I was at work! Vote:Andres sure is trying hard to get me killed. I wonder if he'll kill me during the night phase if he can't get me lynched.

[Renata]

Can you tell us why you think Atpg is innocent please?

Day One. Late and unnecessary vote change from Scienter (who was never in danger of lynch) to Who Am I. ATPG's change made it 3 for Who Am I, 3 for Zack, and 2 for Reenk. You are a townie, and Zack probably was, therefore ATPG's not saving a scumbuddy by making this shift. Nor does he seem to be doing it for "look how townie I am reasons" (although it was a solid move given Zack's unlikely-to-be-scum behavior) -- he never makes an issue of it then or later. It looks townie to me.

As well he appears to come out much the better in the debate with Andres from last night, though I haven't read that closely enough to be really confident.

Also what do you think of john here. He rouses my suspicion for some reason. I would have killed him already if I was Mafia.

Absent putting Zack in the lead on day one, my overall impression is "safe". He voted one-offs on days two and three and is going with Andres here.

[B-Wing]

Why was I killed? I thought laying low was scummy behavior, and therefore, I shouldn't have been a target. Oh well. I'd vote for Andres this round.

[Visor]

Dead men don't talk. :P

Vote: Csargo

Wherefore are thou, Csargo?

[TheLastDays]

I think we should be past voting for people just because they don't show up right now...

[Visor]

Or not showing up at all. I want to hear his opinion. That's all.

[Csargo]

Or not showing up at all. I want to hear his opinion. That's all.

Why me?

[Visor]

Cause I noticed you first.

[Csargo]

Cause I noticed you first.

How did you notice me?

[Visor]

I dunno. I just want to hear your opinions. Yours was the name under mine.

[Csargo]

Well, I'm going to go with the thing that stuck out most to me yesterday. That was ATPG's vote switch to make it a tie. So, Vote:ATPG

[Askthepizzaguy]

Well, I'm going to go with the thing that stuck out most to me yesterday. That was ATPG's vote switch to make it a tie. So, Vote:ATPG

I love you, Csargo.

[Csargo]

I love you, Csargo.

LOVE ME MORE.

[Askthepizzaguy]

LOVE ME MORE.

Impossible, darling.

[Andres]

I missed a lot while I was at work! Vote:Andres sure is trying hard to get me killed. I wonder if he'll kill me during the night phase if he can't get me lynched.

You have made 13 posts in this thread, but you haven't said much at all, allthough it is clear that you are following this game with much attention.

[Andres]

But now I find your case to be really contrived. I mean, Atpg and Chaotix have this clear connection but it is because Atpg wants to use it as a screen for Scienter. Also, if this is what you think, why aren't you voting for Atpg. Certainly he's been flagged more, already has a vote on him, and will be an easier lynch than Scienter who probably won't get a big showing given the thing with you and Atpg/Chaotix.

Yes, ATPG and Chaotix have a clear connection. That's why I mentioned it. As a result, ATPG immediately started to attack me. During the back and forth, I realised it wasn't likely Chaotix was his scum partner.

I've had a strong gut feeling against Scienter for a long time now; maybe I wanted to see a connection between both of them in the fact that ATPG flattered me (scum!) by stating that my gut feeling is golden and voting Scienter.

I'm sure if my case isn't convincing or clear. Note that in the Animus game people wanted to lynch me for several rounds (and eventually they did lynch me) and thought I was scum. In the end, it was shown that I was innocent and right about a lot of things.

This is getting frustrating.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Yes, ATPG and Chaotix have a clear connection. That's why I mentioned it. As a result, ATPG immediately started to attack me. During the back and forth, I realised it wasn't likely Chaotix was his scum partner.

Not immediately.

Go back and look at the time stamps on my posts. Well after I read the thread and all your posts, I posted this:

It really would be a pleasure, sir. Maybe someday.

Man, this totally doesn't sound like WIFOM or anything like that. There's no chance either me or you will get any votes at all tomorrow. Nope.

And like 8 hours passed before I made any further comment.

On my first read I was simply catching up on everything that had been said, in this game and others. I took a break from the thread, came back, and attempted to use the time constructively by looking for anything unusual.

Although Reenk has a point that your comment about God Emperor may have had a purpose, in my mind, on a second read, I decided that it was coming from a place that wasn't genuine or useful. That may or may not be the case.

The point is, if this were some kind of reaction to your statement about me and Chaotix, where I would turn around and attack you out of flinching or emotion or whatever, there wouldn't have been some 8 hours in between.

Your impression of what I was doing is entirely wrong. This was pure scum-searching, and it's evident from the sequence of events and the time elapsed. If you're town and fair-minded, you'll realize that this is correct.

I've had a strong gut feeling against Scienter for a long time now; maybe I wanted to see a connection between both of them in the fact that ATPG flattered me (scum!) by stating that my gut feeling is golden and voting Scienter.

Before I have any suspicion of you in particular, I like to stand back and watch you work, and even encourage the death of your suspects. I've seen your gut lead to wonderful things before, many a time. I commented on your gut being golden in other games as well. This is my default position on you. That only changes when I know for a fact your gut is wrong, or when I suspect you're guilty.

I'm sure if my case isn't convincing or clear. Note that in the Animus game people wanted to lynch me for several rounds (and eventually they did lynch me) and thought I was scum. In the end, it was shown that I was innocent and right about a lot of things.

If we're going to go that route, I could mention you voted to lynch me early over Kagemusha, and in the end it was shown that I was innocent and right.... We could do that, but it wouldn't be very useful to anyone. I know that you're one who doesn't like these games turning into a contest of who is right, and I tend to agree. Because you are right in other situations doesn't make you more right or wrong now. Especially if you're scum, and I laid out clear reasons why I think you are.

This is getting frustrating.

If you think I am scum, you should be voting for me, Andres. Either back up your suspicions, or do not pretend to have them, my fellow blue man groupie.

[Andres]

Are you now saying that you think I'm scum because I think you're scum?

I suggest we lynch Scienter first.