Gay Parenting

[Shibumi]

From the glance I got of the NY restaurant maybe that has something to do with it. The Texan one was just a little diner, people are more likely to speak up in that sort of environment compared to the place in NY, it looked pretty posh and you probably get the sort of people there that wouldn't want to make a fuss (unless it concerned them).

Agreed.

The size and type of restaurant plays a big role here. I imagine that in the smaller Texas restaurant people felt more "at home" as they probably were regular guests. So the comparison as such has big flaws.

With that said, big cred to Texas! Very heartwarming to watch!

[Louis VI the Fat]

I wonder what I would've done. I think I might have spoken out when the waitress claims to speak on behalf of all customers there.


As for TX vs NY: Me, I blame urbanised vs rural. It is always in the city where one will freeze to death while a million people walk by.


Also, I am shocked at the derogatory tone with which these customers adress the waitress. 'You need to be unpolitical and just do your job' - oh, how that would make for a fun thread about differences between Texas and France. I might've stood up for the waitress against these presumptuous customers.

[Shibumi]

I wonder what I would've done. I think I might have spoken out when the waitress claims to speak on behalf of all customers there.


As for TX vs NY: Me, I blame urbanised vs rural. It is always in the city where one will freeze to death while a million people walk by.


Also, I am shocked at the derogatory tone with which these customers adress the waitress. 'You need to be unpolitical and just do your job' - oh, how that would make for a fun thread about differences between Texas and France. I might've stood up for the waitress against these presumptuous customers.

What is wrong with telling someone to do their job?

Or if you made a joke, if so, what was the point of it?

[Strike For The South]

The town they are talking about is in the middle of the metroplex....rural it is not

Face it, Texans are better than you.

[Shibumi]

The town they are talking about is in the middle of the metroplex....rural it is not

Face it, Texans are better than you.

Well, to be honest, all we can tell from this is that one diner in Texas is better than one might have assumed given the general trend in the USA and the heartland in particular.

You have to remember that in civilized countries the topic at large would not even be a question worthy of a TV show.

So yeah, still a lose. Producer had a hunch that Texas would be a good place to shoot this, Texas had people giving thumbs up to an actress waitress. That would not have happened over here.

So in a way, it is a very pitiful victory, do you not agree? All that program showed was that Texas is not as bad as some may think.

[Strike For The South]

1 instance out of 100 is a statistical anomaly. Which is why I don't judge other Swedes

The general trend of the heartland? LOL Texas isn't in the "heartland" and of course the trend you speak of has no basis in credible fact.

The question really is "will people stand up to bullies" other topics on the show include beatings, rape, etc. It isn't necesarily about them being gay

And we see Texans will stand up to bullies at a rate 4x that of New Yorkers

[Louis VI the Fat]

So in a way, it is a very pitiful victory, do you not agree? All that program showed was that Texas is not as bad as some may think.

It shows that Americans are always more open, friendly, and moral than most everybody else. Yes, moral. It is the European who forever fails to understand that the American struggles to live life right, to do good, to do what is right. Unlike the European. Whose morality is mostly a thin veneer, a social necessity, kept up out of fear for being caught, which is never far away from being cast away when opportunity presents itself.

We've been owned by Texas. In Europe, a waitress can refuse to serve a Gypsie or a Muslim, and the entire place will applaud.

What difference ten years can make in America. A decade ago, homophobia ruled. Ever the open society, America fiercely debated the issue, centered around the issue of gay marriage. It emerged that the American in the end does not want to judge a person for who he is. Consequently, homophobia is now fully on the wane. Meanwhile, Europe is descending into a neandertal populism. And that's enlightened Western Europe. In Eastern Europe, bands of men simply patrol the streets and beat you up for looking Gay, or Jewish, or Black.

[Shibumi]

Yeah, well, here this thing would not be worthy of TV material.

You actually have this as a political question, as the vote compass recently showed, whereas here it is a non issue. Do you get the point or do I have to be even more clear?

The woman playing the part was in tears because someone stood up for her - here that again would not be an issue.

Someone gave thumbs up and high fived the actress, again, that would not happen here.

So, my point remains - Texas, not as bad as you think.

Do not get me wrong, I absolutely love the Texan hospitality. And no that is not a pun about the girls, I do genuinely like the Texan atmosphere and culture when it comes to strangers like me. I have walked in to quite some bars there and felt at home at once. I had a 70 year old Texan helping me get my luggage up on a train once, he did not even hesitate.

So cred for that, however, do not take too much cred for being the best of the worst when it comes to sticking up for homosexuality.

[Shibumi]

It shows that Americans are always more open, friendly, and moral than most everybody else. Yes, moral. It is the European who forever fails to understand that the American struggles to live life right, to do good, to do what is right. Unlike the European. Whose morality is mostly a thin veneer, a social necessity, kept up out of fear for being caught, which is never far away from being cast away when opportunity presents itself.

We've been owned by Texas. In Europe, a waitress can refuse to serve a Gypsie or a Muslim, and the entire place will applaud.

What difference ten years can make in America. A decade ago, homophobia ruled. Ever the open society, America fiercely debated the issue, centered around the issue of gay marriage. It emerged that the American in the end does not want to judge a person for who he is. Consequently, homophobia is now fully on the wane. Meanwhile, Europe is descending into a neandertal populism. And that's enlightened Western Europe. In Eastern Europe, bands of men simply patrol the streets and beat you up for looking Gay, or Jewish, or Black.

I really did not get your point, can you summarize for stupid people like me?

I lost you at America being more open and friendly, and the points about America struggling to do good was just garbled. You might want to go into that with further detail.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well even in the UK, there have been controversies with b&b owners not letting gay guests stay. IIRC Cameron supported them in the past, but has backtracked since becoming PM.

Personally I think business owners should be able to deny service to anyone they don't like the look of. Why can't people just have their space?

[Louis VI the Fat]

So, my point remains - Texas, not as bad as you think.

Great. It is exactly my point too: you were wrong about what you thought you knew about Texas.

Edit:*snip*


As for Sweden:

The idea of the country of Sweden, being a country where people are respected and treated equally, can be highly questioned. If you ask people whether this idea is real or not, the answers will differ. This is why we look at a larger picture of the situation, in an objective way.

The most recent, and most covering, report about the health situation for LGBT people on Sweden, gave a clear indication of how the situation actually is. The way you are treated, on the grounds of your sexual orientation, your gender and/or your gender expression, is of course the foundation of feeling well or feeling bad.

According to the Swedish health institute’s report on LGBT people’s health, the general mental health is clearly worse than that of heterosexual, non-transgendered people. The hard facts are that 50 % of the LGBT people in the age of 16-29 has had suicidal thoughts, compared to 17% for the straight people of the same age. When you look at the actual attempt to commit suicide, 15% of the LGB people in the age of 16-29, and 27% of the transgendered, answered that they have tried to. For the straight people of the same age, this figure was 6 %.

Another figure that is very discomforting is that 46% of the gay and bisexual men in the age 16-29 has been subject to violence the last 12 months, compared to 10% for the straight men of the same age. The young lesbian and bisexual women have also experienced violence to a greater extent than the straight comparison, but the difference is not as large as in the case of young men. This group on the other hand have a much larger risk behaviour concerning alcohol than the men, in the same age.

According to the health institute, the discrimination of LGBT people in Sweden is a central democracy issue. It’s the discrimination that leads to risk behaviours concerning alcohol, and also the suicide attempts. The idea of Sweden being a country where everyone’s respected and treated equally is obviously not true.
http://www.stop-homophobia.eu/en/the...in-sweden.html

Half of gays in Sweden contemplate suicide. Half of Swedish gay men have been subjected to violence last year. Ah well, we can't all be Texas.

[Centurion1]

tou f'ing che louis

I laughed.

[PanzerJaeger]

First north versus south, and now America versus Europe. That's not the point.

As for Sweden:

According to the Swedish health institute’s report on LGBT people’s health, the general mental health is clearly worse than that of heterosexual, non-transgendered people. The hard facts are that 50 % of the LGBT people in the age of 16-29 has had suicidal thoughts, compared to 17% for the straight people of the same age. When you look at the actual attempt to commit suicide, 15% of the LGB people in the age of 16-29, and 27% of the transgendered, answered that they have tried to. For the straight people of the same age, this figure was 6 %.

Another figure that is very discomforting is that 46% of the gay and bisexual men in the age 16-29 has been subject to violence the last 12 months, compared to 10% for the straight men of the same age. The young lesbian and bisexual women have also experienced violence to a greater extent than the straight comparison, but the difference is not as large as in the case of young men. This group on the other hand have a much larger risk behaviour concerning alcohol than the men, in the same age.

Such statistics make me absolutely furious. How insecure about your own life and worldview do you have to be to beat up on gay people?

[Shibumi]

wrote stuff:

Great figures, source?

And on a further note - compare those numbers to American statistics? If you want to make a comparison between the US of A and Sweden, you have to disclose the numbers and source of both sides, you know.

In Sweden gay people can get married.
We do not have a "don't ask don't tell" policy in the army.
Go around in the capital and you will see the Gay Banner proudly raised at a lot of places.

Admittedly, yes there are some fringe groups still against it all, Christians of course foremost. However, that is still a very limited group.

I will venture as far as saying I honestly do not believe those numbers you stated, it is not the reality I see here. I am absolutely sure that Sweden at large have a rather open view towards homosexuality. A political party that would even bring that question up would be ridiculed and scorned.

Your only source seem to be some blog called "stop homophobia". Well done you. Got other sources?

I might as well enter some area 51 blog site to prove to you that aliens do in fact exist.

Centurion1 Given what I have seen from you, there is no doubt in my mind that you laughed. No need to stress the point.

PJ Again? Really? If your acceptance of that post have any bearing on your general approach to data it explains your previous errors.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Great figures, source?

Statens folkhälsoinstitut, 'Homosexuellas, bisexuellas och transpersoners hälsosituation'. Återrapportering av regeringsuppdrag att undersöka och analysera hälsosituationen bland hbt-personer, rapport A 2005:19.

Det kan du læse mere om her: http://www.rfslkronoberg.se/publikat...ion_051222.pdf

Vær'sko min Svensk, jeg kan kun taler lidt Dansk, ikke Svensk. Men jeg kan godt forstå det sprog.

[PanzerJaeger]

PJ Again? Really? If your acceptance of that post have any bearing on your general approach to data it explains your previous errors.

Umm, what? I just expressed my disgust with anti-gay violence.

Anyway, my Swedish is only as good as Google Translate, but I believe Louis' source may be quoting studies such as this.

Psychodynamic Developmental Psychology interwoven with theories of
coming-out process. To investigate the mental health and illness among
young people aged 16-24 who are attracted to people of their own sex was
1285 respondents using a paper questionnaire or nätenkät answer 62 questions
about their living conditions. Many girls reported a bisexual orientation
and a tendency to link heterosexual love bands. The boys
homosexuality emerged as problematic to accept both
individual and the outside world. Respondents were twice as vulnerable
to threats and violence as a selection from the general population. A remarkable
high proportion of girls reported frequent binge drinking and a
high consumption of pills. Respondents reported a low self-estimated
general health and a high proportion of girls low self esteem.
A large percentage of the respondents reported suicide attempt,
twice as large for girls and three times that of boys
compared with the sample from the general population. Age of attempted suicide
low before coming-out-age and before the exploration of same-sex
sexual and social activities

A three times as many of the guys in this
survey than the boys in the study of normal population reported suicide attempt.
The two foreign studies which have not divided by gender was reported that 2-6
times the proportion of homosexual youths compared with youths in the general population
had attempted suicide. Looking at the whole group in this study is
corresponding share over two times as large as in the study from 1993 to the general population.
The causes of suicide attempts are difficult to identify. Among the reasons stated
again, most "ordinary" reasons that are applicable to all (even heterosexual), as
For example, self-hatred, the feeling of being isolated and fed up with their own thoughts. Several indicators
specific group of homosexuals and bisexuals are obvious. Stand out clearly - in
compared to the general population - a lower self-esteem and a lower estimated general health;
more frequent consumption of large amounts of alcohol, increase exposure to
discrimination, intimidation and violence, and a poorer social network. These are factors that characterize
marginalized and vulnerable groups in society.

And then there's this:

The studies in Sweden: In Sweden three prevalence studies on violence against homosexuals and bisexuals have been conducted in 1981, 1996, and 2004. The two most recent studies are discussed here. Study in 1996 In the study carried out in 1996, 25% of the 2000 participants stated that they had been a victim of different types of hate crimes due to sexual orientation. Men (28%) were more often victims compared to women (20%). From those victimized 20% had also been exposed to harassment in the work place. Study in 2004 In the new study carried out in 2004, with 2000 participants, the rate of victimization was 52%. The situation has changed in relation to the study of 1996. The number of male victims is 51% and of females 53%. Young persons were most often victims of this type of crime. Seventy-seven percent of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender persons (LGBT) under 20 years of age stated that they had been victims of some sort of hate crime. Of participants between 20 and 30 years of age, 64% said so; of middle aged persons 40-50%; and of 60 to 70 year old participants about 10%. Twelve percent claimed they had been victims of crimes of violence, and 11% of sex crimes. Perpetrators were relatives, neighbors, pupils, students, craftsmen, storekeepers, colleagues and authorities. Slander, insult and verbal harassment are the most common types of offences. Thus, hate crimes against LGBT persons in Sweden have doubled since 1996. This is the conclusion of the new study by criminologist Eva Tiby at Stockholm University.

Ironically, the very limited data on anti-gay harrassment in the US seems to indicate that its occurrence is very similar or even less prevelent than in 'civilized' Sweden.

Objectives. We examined the 6-month cumulative incidence of anti-gay harassment, discrimination, and violence among young gay/bisexual men and documented their associations with mental health.

Methods. Gay/bisexual men from 3 cities in the southwestern United States completed self-administered questionnaires.

Results. Thirty-seven percent of men reported experiencing anti-gay verbal harassment in the previous 6 months; 11.2% reported discrimination, and 4.8% reported physical violence. Men were more likely to report these experiences if they were younger, were more open in disclosing their sexual orientation to others, and were HIV positive. Reports of mistreatment were associated with lower self-esteem and increased suicidal ideation.
...

Little is known about the prevalence or incidence of mistreatment in the years following high school. Herek et al. sampled 2259 gay and lesbian adults and found that, during their adult lifetimes, 28% of men and 19% of women reported some form of violence or other criminal activity directed at them as a result of their sexual orientation.4 Diaz et al. sampled 912 gay and bisexual Latino men and found that 10% reported anti-gay violence and 15% to 50% reported other forms of anti-gay discrimination and harassment as adults.1 However, to our knowledge, no large study has used a multiethnic sample to document the extent of anti-gay mistreatment experienced by young gay and bisexual men.

Edit: Looks like I didn't need to bother as Louis had it covered...

[Louis VI the Fat]

ninja'd

[Strike For The South]

Louis, Bringing the rain

[Centurion1]

Excuse me Shibumi. Don't be such a frigging prick. Why don't you find out about people before you make judgements you. I have nothing against homosexuals and can be described as ambivalent to mildly supportive. Meaning I don't give a damn about them doing their thing, getting married, and adopting kids. This attitude is in my mind conducive to a healthy society.

Also by the way why dont you check your sources.

A. The don't ask don't tell policy was repealed awhile ago I had a briefing on the changes made.

B. I can walk around DC our capitol and see plenty of gay pride banners raised proudly all over thew damn place as well like Dupont Circle.

C. LOL, Gays can marry in a few states here. The American system will never allow the Federal government to make blanket decisions without a mandate from the people.

Admittedly, yes there are some fringe groups still against it all, Christians of course foremost. However, that is still a very limited group.

LOL, Yeah sure Christians may dislike homosexuals (blanket statement) but what about fundy Muslims, immigrants, hell the poor and working class in general. At least in America thats how it usually goes down. As well as certain minority groups who have a certain dislike traditionally for homosexuals (African Americans are known for it)

I will venture as far as saying I honestly do not believe those numbers you stated, it is not the reality I see here. I am absolutely sure that Sweden at large have a rather open view towards homosexuality. A political party that would even bring that question up would be ridiculed and scorned.

I will venture as far as saying I honestly do not believe those numbers you stated, it is not the reality I see here. I am absolutely sure that Sweden at large have a rather open view towards homosexuality. A political party that would even bring that question up would be ridiculed and scorned.

I scorn your pathetic naivete.

"first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye"

Hell you don't even need to remove it simply admit it is there.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The one big thing I cannot stand the most about the gay marriage issue is the "ability" of states to not recognize certified gay marriages from other states if they themselves do not recognize gay marriage.

Have we completely forgotten the "Full Faith and Credit" clause from the Constitution?

[Centurion1]

The one big thing I cannot stand the most about the gay marriage issue is the "ability" of states to not recognize certified gay marriages from other states if they themselves do not recognize gay marriage.

Have we completely forgotten the "Full Faith and Credit" clause from the Constitution?

Its all dumb but yes this one must sting. At the end of the day we are all under the same overarching flag

[PanzerJaeger]

And.... that warm fuzzy feeling just evaporated.

Tennessee state senate passes 'Don't Say Gay' bill.

The Tennessee Senate passed a bill on Friday that would bar teachers from discussing homosexuality with elementary and middle school students.

Under the legislation, dubbed by critics as the "don't say gay" bill, any instruction in public classrooms will be "limited exclusively to age-appropriate natural human reproduction science."

Republican Stacey Campfield, the bill's sponsor, says "homosexuals don't naturally reproduce" and has argued families should decide when its appropriate to talk with their children about homosexuality.

But gay rights activists are blasting the legislation, which passed 6-3, as a form of discrimination.

It "limits what teachers and students are able to discuss in the classroom," Ben Byers of the Tennessee Equality Project told LBGTQ Nation. "It means they can't talk about gay issues or sexuality even with students who may be gay or have gay family."

It's unlikely that the bill will be taken up by the House before lawmakers adjourn this spring, but Campfield said he would push it forward in 2012.

The bill, which was approved 19-11, passed the same day as Gallup released a poll revealing that American attitudes towards homosexuality are changing.

For the first time in Gallup polling history, the majority of Americans—53% believe same-sex marriage should be legal.

Passage of the bill would make Tennessee the first state to enact such legislation.

Initially, the bill read that no students will "provide any instruction or material that discusses sexual orientation other than heterosexuality." Campfield said some of his colleagues were uncomfortable the language.

"There's more than one way to skin a cat," Campfield said after the legislation passed. "I got what I wanted."

[Samurai Waki]

is it just me or does Stacy Campfield look incredibly gay?

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think its funny that he's called "Stacey"...

[Shibumi]

Louis, the question runs deeper than one report. And then there is of course the fact that you can not really accuse Sweden of being worse without similar data from the USA.

I read the relevant parts of the report now, and violence seem more spread than I thought. Most of the violence though has been pushes and stuff (not that that is much good either). The Gay Organization in Sweden had a huge drive some years ago to raise the awareness, urging their members to report any kind of abuse. I think that more or less sky rocketed the statistics.

Had a talk with an American friend who is gay, and he claim that the situation for gays are way worse in the states. Not evidence as such, I know, but at least here the gays do not have much/any administrative obstacles.

I am not saying Sweden is perfect when it comes to this issue, but I do claim that it is better here. And again, if you want to compare you really have to show the statistics from both involved parties, not just the one.


Centurion1, Over reacting much are we? I have not made any judgement of you, and all I know of you is what I can tell from your posts.

[Fragony]

Do mind that harassment is also included, not half of Swedish gays are beaten up on yearly basis. But don't we all know who's doing it, anyways.

[Shibumi]

Do mind that harassment is also included, not half of Swedish gays are beaten up on yearly basis. But don't we all know who's doing it, anyways.

I skipped that part, but yes, you are indeed right.

Another way to look at the report would be to say that about half of the gays can be so openly without even being harassed in a whole year..

[ajaxfetish]

Louis, the question runs deeper than one report. And then there is of course the fact that you can not really accuse Sweden of being worse without similar data from the USA.

I don't think Louis was claiming that gay discrimination in Sweden is worse than in the USA. He was simply demonstrating that your original claim--that gay rights are a total non-issue there--is false.

Ajax

[Shibumi]

I don't think Louis was claiming that gay discrimination in Sweden is worse than in the USA. He was simply demonstrating that your original claim--that gay rights are a total non-issue there--is false.

Ajax

Everything is relative I guess.

[ajaxfetish]

Everything is relative I guess.

And if you wanted to dredge up some comparable American data, then you might have a point to make.

Ajax