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  1. #1
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I'm becoming a vegetarian

    Oh goodness... another "I can build a skyscraper" argument.

    YOU can't do anything. Everything you do is a product of cooperation between the like beings around you, which I remind you is itself derived from the products of evolutionary traits gained through the same exact pathways as every other creature we know of. Without other human beings, you will become a mass of a man, unable to contribute anything. Access of information has lessened the effects of this, but the principle of it all remains the same.

    You seem to be vaguely pushing forth a concept of "greater good" Humans have no such concept and overall, most strive only to survive. We are not the pinnacle of evolution. We have not changed very much in the past 75000 years and we are still susceptible to stagnation and the repercussions of our own arrogance.

    That being said, I tend to avoid eating large amounts of meat and can't understand those who insist on eating large amounts of cow.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I'm becoming a vegetarian

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER View Post
    Oh goodness... another "I can build a skyscraper" argument.
    Not my argument I'm just defending it. Other than 'meat tastes good', how can you really justify eating other planet dwellers. At least aknowledge that it's a choice and not a necessity.

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    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I'm becoming a vegetarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Not my argument I'm just defending it. Other than 'meat tastes good', how can you really justify eating other planet dwellers. At least aknowledge that it's a choice and not a necessity.
    your first error is the stance that it somehow needs to be justified.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I'm becoming a vegetarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    your first error is the stance that it somehow needs to be justified.
    This thread wouldn't exist otherwise, these discussions aren't held over a piece of corn.

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I'm becoming a vegetarian

    These incisors are just for show

    Meat is why our brains are so big and why we continue to get taller every
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    JEBMMP Creator & AtB Maker Member jirisys's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I'm becoming a vegetarian

    Because we CAN eat meat, we eat meat. Also, we are attracted to greasy foods (mostly animals anyways), so it tastes good in our tastebuds.

    We can't eat glass (99.99% of us at least), so we don't eat it (except the 0.01% of the 0.01%)

    I wouldn't eat fresh meat either though (though I am always up for the deal if I just hunted a cow).

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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I'm becoming a vegetarian

    Bleh too many posts to reply to all of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post

    to what is in bold
    - holy contradiction batman!
    and you can´t choose what you evolve into.
    We can choose our behaviour though. My point about the stupid animals thing is that it's a way of showing how civilised and un-animal like it is to voluntary choose not to eat meat as reason has led you to conclude that it is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    Well up to a point. Here you can pretty much buy twice as many vegetables and pretend it's all as yummy as meat or fish, but we as a species cannot. For instance if you happened to be lactose intolerant, it'd be quite unhealthy to discard your only source of various vitamins which only occur in animals and which your body can't really do without. In various other places meat and fish are simply needed because they are pretty much the only source of protein rich food available, or because it is practically impossible to gather as much calories in the environment yourself -- consider the practice of eating tarantula's in the Amazonian rain forest.
    Sure, hence my point of eating for pleasure. If there was some unfortunate with a whole host of allergies, including nut allergies, lactose intolerance, tofu intolerances, beans and pulses intolerance, then that individual would have to eat meat in order to maintain a healthy diet.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER View Post
    You seem to be vaguely pushing forth a concept of "greater good" Humans have no such concept and overall, most strive only to survive. We are not the pinnacle of evolution. We have not changed very much in the past 75000 years and we are still susceptible to stagnation and the repercussions of our own arrogance.
    You're wrong in supposing that the idea of a "greater good" does not exist - if it doesn't, then why does society exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
    Hunting them for fun is evil, letting them run themself into a situation of mass death is good? Yes, the population will stabilize (at least cyclic) with time, but if we have already given the animals a high value, it's inconsistant to simply let them destroy themself.
    The latter is ethically neutral. Since humans will have had no impact on the situation, there are no morals to speak of. This is in contrast to situations were humans can have an impact on animal life.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mad Arab View Post
    That's what I told the coast guard, but they didn't take it well.

    In any case, me being the other vegetarian on the forums, having not eaten meat for about six years (with an interval here and there), the first reason why I chose not anymore meat was not so much the fact that animals were killed (which is something we have been doing for at least the last 8,000 years), but rather the way in which they were killed.

    In essence, I find it hard to swallow (heh) that when I eat meat, there is no real connection between the hunter and the prey. It goes to such a degree that we might be unaware of the fact that what we're eating was once a creature frolicking around in the wild, or at least, frolicking around with six other like-minded animals in a 2x2 pen.
    So would you eat meat that you hunted for pleasure? I'm not criticising, just curious.

    In any case, I don't think we should anthropomorphise animals and automatically assume that they are capable of feeling pain. There was a study pertaining to whether or not crustaceans like lobster feel pain if they are boiled alive. There is no real academic consensus concerning this, and as such I am hesitant to assume that animals are capable of realising they are in pain.
    Definitely agree. That said, my reasoning is based more upon the actual act of taking sentient life for pleasure, as opposed to the pain, but YMMV.

    I don't think non-vegetarians are lesser humans, or less ethical than other people. It's unfair. Eating meat is only natural. It's our choice to act unnaturally. Don't forget that.
    Again, definitely agree, hence my Himmler example. There also might be an element of craftiness in not being zealous, as being finger-wagged at and told that you're a bad person and a lesser human for eating meat is going to change anyone's behaviour. C.'s attitude for example to non-vegetarians is extremely relaxed, and had C. been in my face about it (To a level that I would have expected given how passionate C. is about animal welfare), then I probably would have been a lot more resistant to C.'s ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    your first error is the stance that it somehow needs to be justified.
    Surely we should seek to justify as many of our actions as possible? By denying the need for a justification for anything, you are denying the consequences of your actions.

    Because we CAN eat meat, we eat meat.
    Because we CAN skin people alive to make hats out of their skin, we skin people alive to make hats out of their skin!

    EDIT: Whoops, forgot this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside
    That your defense is a fart compared to a hurricane. In human terms, you're suggesting wiping out ghettos out of mercy, due to the maltreatment of the humans living there. How many would call such a person humane and not a competitor to the most evil person ever?
    Aha, I see. There is a distinction to be made though, even if we temporarily sideline the knee-jerk, automatic and correct reaction to put human life far above animal life. A factory farmed animal will be born, grow up in a cage, and then die. That is it. There are no opportunities for self-improvement or the fulfilment of aspiration (to temporarily and shamelessly anthromorphize the chickens). This is in contrast to a ghetto-kid, who has the potential, however slim, to do just that. This difference means that the value of the life of the ghetto-kid is more worthwhile than that of a factory farmed chicken.
    Last edited by Subotan; 05-30-2011 at 22:44.

  8. #8
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I'm becoming a vegetarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
    That your defense is a fart compared to a hurricane. In human terms, you're suggesting wiping out ghettos out of mercy, due to the maltreatment of the humans living there. How many would call such a person humane and not a competitor to the most evil person ever?
    Well that's not a very fair comparison on a lot of levels that are pretty obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    These incisors are just for show

    Meat is why our brains are so big and why we continue to get taller every
    But how is this related to the ethics of it?

    Anyway, I am responsible for a one-man genocide of the chicken species. Got to feed the beast.

    Hmm... I wonder if sometime in the far future if we have become some sort of weird hippie-enlightened society, they will look upon our treatment of animals as a horror show. And all these people using 'rational' arguments and appealing to the natural order of things etc to defend it will be seen like those who did similar things to defend slavery.
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I'm becoming a vegetarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwr View Post
    Hmm... I wonder if sometime in the far future if we have become some sort of weird hippie-enlightened society, they will look upon our treatment of animals as a horror show. And all these people using 'rational' arguments and appealing to the natural order of things etc to defend it will be seen like those who did similar things to defend slavery.
    Yeah, I reckon so. I've heard it phrased as a widening circle of concern: over history, we have become more inclusive about the beings we care about. Distinctions by slavery, caste, class, sex, nationality, sexuality etc have gradually become to be regarded as having little or no ethical force. Universalist morals - regarding all people with equal concern - are dominant. It's already spilling over to other species - many countries outlaw animal cruelty and harming animals while making movies, for example, has become unacceptable.

    However, as someone who hasn't eaten meat for the last 28 years, I guess I would say that. For me it's quite a simple matter - many of the things that make my life enjoyable and give it value, I know are also felt by many kinds of animals (tastey food, the sun warming my body, the affection of my companions, even play). Even more commonly felt are the things that can make my life unpleasant (pain, discomfort, fear etc.).

  10. #10
    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I'm becoming a vegetarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwr View Post
    Hmm... I wonder if sometime in the far future if we have become some sort of weird hippie-enlightened society, they will look upon our treatment of animals as a horror show. And all these people using 'rational' arguments and appealing to the natural order of things etc to defend it will be seen like those who did similar things to defend slavery.

    Only if the animals turned out to be more of our calibre than we think - having emotional lives comparable to those of humans. Of course, mental capabilities of animals should vary from species to species, so talk about animal treatment as a whole is going to be inaccurate regardless of which year we're in.

    Slavery was about fellow humans, same is issues related to sexual orientation etc.
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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why I'm becoming a vegetarian

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    The latter is ethically neutral. Since humans will have had no impact on the situation, there are no morals to speak of. This is in contrast to situations were humans can have an impact on animal life.
    While ajaxfetish cover it mostly, I'm just adding that it feels that you don't really care about the animals themself, but only the human-animal interaction when it comes to food.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    Aha, I see. There is a distinction to be made though, even if we temporarily sideline the knee-jerk, automatic and correct reaction to put human life far above animal life. A factory farmed animal will be born, grow up in a cage, and then die. That is it. There are no opportunities for self-improvement or the fulfilment of aspiration (to temporarily and shamelessly anthromorphize the chickens). This is in contrast to a ghetto-kid, who has the potential, however slim, to do just that. This difference means that the value of the life of the ghetto-kid is more worthwhile than that of a factory farmed chicken.
    It's not like we have more rigid systems than ghettos. Personally I would want the case system to disappear, but I'm quite certain that the casteless would prefer to exist if status quo or death are the only reasonable options.

    I'm not opposing better conditions for the animals and your need to anthromorphize also gives another problem. If aliens are keeping us from transcendance for some reason and we're not even close to achiving it anyway, is that bad, from our position? So, is the loss of self-improvement or the fulfilment of aspiration bad, when the animal in question can't achieve it anyway?

    Is someone truely living in slavery if they never realize it? Presonally I find this one quite eerie, from a human perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwr View Post
    Well that's not a very fair comparison on a lot of levels that are pretty obvious.
    In that case, name them please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwr View Post
    Hmm... I wonder if sometime in the far future if we have become some sort of weird hippie-enlightened society, they will look upon our treatment of animals as a horror show. And all these people using 'rational' arguments and appealing to the natural order of things etc to defend it will be seen like those who did similar things to defend slavery.
    Possibly, some time after the artificial meat market has taken over by pragmatic reasons and the silent genocide in the aftermarch is forgotten by most.
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