Crusader Kings [Concluded]

[Kagemusha]

Duke of Connaught turns towards the speaker and replies:

"We are not talking here about giving Mide to Munster, but making TCV a Duke. Like the Duke that held Mide before him. He would be not a liege of Munster or anyone else, but an independent Duke of Mide."

[A_Dane]

Mide was a county, not a dukedome, and hence it would fall under Connaught.

[Kagemusha]

Here is what the news concerning the Mide said:

"One man was noticable in his absence from the tourney, and on their seperate ways home news reached the four Dukes of the death of the Count of Mide. He left no male heir, only a fourteen year old daughter. The County was ripe for the picking, with no legitimate heir no claim was needed to take it with force. There was little to fear from the former Dukes forces, they would likely accept a strong Duke as their overlord."

In the end it says that: "There was little to fear from former Duke´s forces."
To me it seems that, yes. Mide is a single County, but a single county ruled by A Duke. Of course the scribes can enlighten us if i am wrong about the title of the last Lord of Mide, as far as i know he did not serve any of the other Duke´s of Ireland.Thus he was independent. So I would propose to have an indpendent Duke to continue ruling his land and i cant think of a better man then the one i proposed.

[B-Wing]

I think we will have to get THC's input about this proposal. I doubt the nobles of Mide will willingly agree to be put under the rule of an outsider just because the other dukes like the idea. I'm almost certain they will have to be subdued, and a ruler installed by force.

[Kagemusha]

Yes. That is why i talked about the scribes and their wisdom. ;) After all in absence of King the Duke´s have to try and govern the land and unamous decisions are less likely to result into a country wide war over a single county.

[A_Dane]

he would still, for all intents and purposes, be the duke of connaughts slave, in order to avoid being eaten by one of us...

[The Celtic Viking]

"I thank you all for your kind words. It was an honour to participate in the tournament, and I thank the almighty God for smiling upon me that day. Thank you all!"

TCV throws a glint towards Ibn-Khaldun.

"And a special thanks for the horsebreeders of Ulster for not teaching their beasts to recognize when their masters wants to make stunts. I'm sure you will have your rematch some day, my dear Ibn-Khaldun.

Now, Kagemusha, you speak fairly and I am deeply, deeply honoured by your suggestion. I absolutely agree that a peaceful solution to this matter is the best solution, and if this means me taking over as its new Duke, I would be happy to do it should it be offered to me officially. However, I am still loyal to Centurion, and if he says no to letting me go, I will respect his will."

[autolycus]

Why would TCV be Connaught's slave? If anything I would expect him to have some residual loyalty to Munster, his former homeland. Once he, a strong adult, is on the throne of Mige, no one would be so heretical as to make war on him without a legitimate claim on the land. It is only the irregular situation of a Duke dying with no relatives except for a young daughter that has created a void liable to be filled by a general melee of arms. My duke seeks a way to avoid that bloodshed, and I support it.

[A_Dane]

Connaught because he was the one to get him in the position ? If anything, this would tie those 2 together, strengthening Connaughts situation.

But even if that's not the case, he won't be strong enough on his own, and this means he'll need to stick very closely to someone, and that would probably be either Munster or Connaught, either way, not a prefferable option for the 2 other dukedoms...

Anyways, this is my personal opinion, and it'll be up to my duke to decide..

[johnhughthom]

There is only one Dukedom that could be created, Duke of Meath. Mide and Dublin would need to be held, Leinster would have to give up Dublin. More than that, we don't have enough players to create another Dukedom, two Dukedoms don't have enough to fill all the offices as it is.

That was a typo regarding "former Duke's forces." It should have been Count.

[B-Wing]

Illuminating. I think that settles the matter then. Mide will have to be taken by force and annexed to one the 4 existing Dukedoms.

[seireikhaan]

Mide does not have to be annexed by force. Myself, the remaining dukes, and The Church can surely come to a resolution which avoids needless bloodshed.

I will declare my intention now that I feel Mide rightfully belongs to the Duke of Ulster. I alone declared myself the servant of God, recognizing that all we have is given by Him. Words are cheap, but actions attest to the true mettle of a man. We must remember that, above all, we are to seek unending glory with the Lord. This means that all rulers must exist as righteous examples for their subjects. I have shown myself to be just that. I grant the Duke of Leinster leave on this matter- he had spent much planning such a grand tournament before the matter of a home for the Lord here on our island became problematic. However, the other two dukes have no such excuse. If the Lord decides to grant the county to another, it would comfort me that it would go to Duke Diamondeye.

[Jolt]

Mide does not have to be annexed by force. Myself, the remaining dukes, and The Church can surely come to a resolution which avoids needless bloodshed.

I will declare my intention now that I feel Mide rightfully belongs to the Duke of Ulster. I alone declared myself the servant of God, recognizing that all we have is given by Him. Words are cheap, but actions attest to the true mettle of a man. We must remember that, above all, we are to seek unending glory with the Lord. This means that all rulers must exist as righteous examples for their subjects. I have shown myself to be just that. I grant the Duke of Leinster leave on this matter- he had spent much planning such a grand tournament before the matter of a home for the Lord here on our island became problematic. However, the other two dukes have no such excuse. If the Lord decides to grant the county to another, it would comfort me that it would go to Duke Diamondeye.

I agree Duke khaan. According to the law of Jus Uxoris, the Count's daughter cannot rule the lands. As the family has no male member which to inherit the land, it thus becomes without a Lord and master, it is a land without any legal proprietor, thus theoretically becoming Res Nullius and ellegible to be seized by anyone who wants it. It is therefore clear that all Dukes have stakes to claim in the land and only the Holy Church, who has no outstanding interests in the county, with the exception of the protection of the children of God and the prevention of bloodshed between Catholic brothers, can intervene and mediate this dispute, so that we may find a suitable benefactor who is the most legitimate to secure the lands of Mide and its prosperity.

As noone has any legitimate claims over the land of Mide, moreover according to the principle of the Res publica Christiana, which states that the surpreme ruler of every land is His Holiness the Pope, and that all land is merely delegated by God to be governed by his subjects, designated and sanctioned by the Pope, much like the feudal contracts where Kings give their own land to their vassals, the land is under the administration of the Holy Pope, and as I am his representative in this island, I have the authority to decide who will recieve the land; As there also is no way of seeing how good is a Lord to his subjects, this decision can only be made on analyzing the piousness of its ruler and his commitment to God.

[TheLastDays]

Thy last link needeth fixing...

[Diamondeye]

I know it is late I concern myself with this situation, but it is because I have been pondering this same question in private. Like the rest of you, I seek a peaceful solution to this problem. If his Grace the Cardinal and the honored Duke of Ulster agrees, I would propose the following;

I will ask the daughter of the late Count of Mide for her hand in holy matrimony, that we may be one in God's eyes. I ask of Jolt to approve this, and if it pleases his lord, to take our vows in person, thus bringing them closer to God's eyes on earth, and that much stronger. If the Church - and the Lady - agree to this, then the County shall fall within Leinster borders without bloodshed, and a crisis will have been avoided.

I would like to offer some sort of compromise to the Duke of Ulster in this situation, but I think the matter would be easier solved in private. For now, Duke Khaan, if things go as they should for the sake of peace, I would ask that you stand as my Best Man on this holy union of man and woman, but I would like to discuss these matters in greater detail.

Diamondeye,
Duke of Leinster.

[Kagemusha]

It is unfortunate that my solution is not something that could have resolved the issue. Connaught is ready to discuss in private about any suggestions the other Dukes and the Church has to deal with this situation. We are listening.

[Skullheadhq]

I know it is late I concern myself with this situation, but it is because I have been pondering this same question in private. Like the rest of you, I seek a peaceful solution to this problem. If his Grace the Cardinal and the honored Duke of Ulster agrees, I would propose the following;

I will ask the daughter of the late Count of Mide for her hand in holy matrimony, that we may be one in God's eyes. I ask of Jolt to approve this, and if it pleases his lord, to take our vows in person, thus bringing them closer to God's eyes on earth, and that much stronger. If the Church - and the Lady - agree to this, then the County shall fall within Leinster borders without bloodshed, and a crisis will have been avoided.

I would like to offer some sort of compromise to the Duke of Ulster in this situation, but I think the matter would be easier solved in private. For now, Duke Khaan, if things go as they should for the sake of peace, I would ask that you stand as my Best Man on this holy union of man and woman, but I would like to discuss these matters in greater detail.

Diamondeye,
Duke of Leinster.

A most excellent proposition! Following this peaceful way I can keep the armies at home, and I think our rivals like them better there then underneath their very city walls...

[Kagemusha]

If people want to have peaceful solution to this dilemma, some might actually think they should negotiate with the other Dukes. If Ulster and Leinster believe that they have the power to just take Mide without the concent of Connaught and Munster, they should think twice.

[Skullheadhq]

without the concent of Connaught and Munster, they should think twice.

Connaught and Munster speak with one mouth now? Interesting...

[Kagemusha]

I will not go into biggering with a Leinster vassal over this matter, maybe you should talk with your Duke before speculating further? It is just very disturbing that Ulster and Leinster seem to dividing lands without consent of other Duke´s.

[A_Dane]

Not anymore disturbing, than you proposing a solution which would put a guy favourable to Munster and Connaught in Mide...

[TheLastDays]

This being the reason that our Duke proposed this solution here, openly, before all of the Dukes, seeking their consensus instead of privately trying to settle this affair with the Duke of Munster.

[A_Dane]

I don't follow. Either way you look at it, If Leinster and Ulster agreed to your proposed solution, we'd still have weakened ourselves, and strengthened you.

[TheLastDays]

I don't agree but the matter is not in the content of the proposed solution itself, the problem lies solely in the way that at least the Duke of Leinster seems to be thinking he can decide the matter solely with the Duke of Ulster without consulting the other Dukes of Ireland.

[The Celtic Viking]

If the Duke of Connaught won't, as he puts it, 'go into biggering with a Leinster vassal' - which is entirely reasonable - then I, a mere Munster vassal shall do it instead. Yes, in this particular case, Connacht and Munster did indeed speak with one mouth. What else is to be expected when your Duke, giving an emperor's clothes pretence at seeking a peaceful resolution, tries to make a secret deal with Ulster so he can take the cake all for himself, whilst treating the Dukes of Connaught and Munster as irrelevant chumps?

Your Duke's words are belligerent and their realization in action could only work to feed the fires of war.

[Diamondeye]

If the Duke of Connaught won't, as he puts it, 'go into biggering with a Leinster vassal' - which is entirely reasonable - then I, a mere Munster vassal shall do it instead. Yes, in this particular case, Connacht and Munster did indeed speak with one mouth. What else is to be expected when your Duke, giving an emperor's clothes pretence at seeking a peaceful resolution, tries to make a secret deal with Ulster so he can take the cake all for himself, whilst treating the Dukes of Connaught and Munster as irrelevant chumps?

Your Duke's words are belligerent and their realization in action could only work to feed the fires of war.

Your talents are of more use in a joust that in the art of diplomacy, I fear. I have never intended to belittle any Duke of the land, I merely responded to the Duke of Ulster - and the Bishop - since they were the ones who initially brought up the subject.

I am very much in favor of settling this peacefully, and I would hear your Duke's suggestion as to how this be done if he has one to speak. But unless I am swayed by some argument not without weight, I intend to wed the young Lady of Mide. Surely, none can then deny my right to the County?

Diamondeye,
Duke of Leinster.

[A_Dane]

Our duke has made his mind quite clear, since all land belongs to god, the bishop should settle this. And since the bishop is appareantly part of Ulster, Ulster is the one you want to negotiate with in regards to this issue.
Now, we could try and settle it outside, but that would be an offence to the good Bishop, and hence, to god. If this is to be solved peacefully, we have to recognize the Bishops ruling, as anything else will end in war.

What you're basically asking is, that we should get your consent, to screw you over, which is not gonna happen either way, just like your Dukes outrageous proposal, would never have been accepted either.

There's one last option, which is for everyone to back off, and let Mide be with a local noble, but I doubt that's gonna happen either.

[Kagemusha]

Duke of Connaught stands up looking at the previous speaker,

"If Bishop is part of Ulster.He is no Bishop at all. Church is above Duke´s and even you proposing that Bishop is mere vassal of Ulster is insulting to both the Bishop, Holy Church and Ulster."

Duke of Connaught

[A_Dane]

Ofcourse the Bishop is not a vassal of Ulster, but the land on which he's Cathedral was/is build, is part of Ulsters domain, which naturally means he'll be based in that Duchy.

Besides, you're not really one to talk about insulting his holiness, having offered him nothing, neither gold nor land. I Think my.. unfortunate choice of words can be overlooked compared to that.

[TheLastDays]

Apparently you believe that by paying for His Holiness and offering him land you, the Duchy of Ulster, have aquired the possibility to decide for him, if he has something to decide. How pieous of you...