Hate for Israel is hating it's succes?

[jirisys]

FragRants(tm): disregarding facts since 2003!

You sir, are great.

~Jirisys ()

[Hax]

hysterical crowds shouting 'allah akhbar' would attack, happens over teddybears no

That didn't even happen in the Arab world. Unless Sudan is suddenly a part of the Arab world. Which y'know, is kinda, odd. Sudan is troubled by more than just unemployment and poor economic conditions.

but atrocities happen everywhere and gays-parades don't

Okay, so how about assassination (commonly referred to as "targeted killing"), which is something that Israeli death squads have been known to do. And I find it hard to believe that the average Likud member is more friendly twoards homosexuality than an Iranian ayatollah. Regardless, I don't think either can be used to assess the exact civility of a state and its residents. I have pointed out earlier that the general population of the Arab world are so disconnected from their leaders and have so little political power that they are more easily drawn towards extremes. If you ask me, it's only thanks to such media as Twitter and Facebook that the Arab world is not teeming with unhappy, frustrated extremists. They're just unhappy and frustrated, but they're no extremists.

The Pechter Middle East Polls bureau took an assessment of the political opinions of the Egyptian people right after the fall of the Mubarak regime. [url=http://pechterpolls.com/?p=919The results[/url]? Hardly any enmity towards the US or Israel, little support for the Muslim Brotherhood and the lack of jobs and economic malaise were found to be the main cause as to why the Revolution kicked off in the first place. Go ahead and see for yourself.

There is no clear cut way to define civility. As far as I'm concerned, the whole Israel-Arab conflict should not be touched with a six-foot long pole, let alone by rash journalists working for some right-wing tabloid somewhere in the US or an Islamist propaganda machine operating in Malaysia. Both sides should be observed with the utmost suspicion. Why do we call an Israeli assassination a "targeted killing", while a Palestinian suicide bombing is "murder"? I am not trying to invoke sympathy for a group of lunatics here, but we should be fair. When the media frames the Arabs in such a way that the only view that the (non-)educated western population gets is that they are either religious extremists or suicide bombers, no wonder there's no support for the Libyan rebels or the Arab spring. The most idiotic thing I must have heard so far is when this right-wing political commentator was talking about "the Libyan ayatollah", ignoring the fact that the very concept of an ayatollah is Shi'ite in nature. How many Shi'ites live in Libya? Not that many. What an idiots.

Fragony, the Arab world is just as diverse as Europe. It would be unfair to judge the working ethics of the Dutch based on Greek financial mismanagement. Same goes for the Arab world.

[Fragony]

The left doesn't give a crap about kurds? Funny, considering that Norway's Socialist Left Party is pushing for Halabja to be classed as genocide today.


FragRants(tm): disregarding facts since 2003!

Having a kurdish voters since. It's just an example

[jirisys]

Having a kurdish voters since.

Grammar senselesness.

~Jirisys ()

[Fragony]

Grammar senselesness.

~Jirisys ()

Tom Cruise seeks Rain Man, know any

[jirisys]

Tom Cruise seeks Rain Man, do you know any?

Corrected.

~Jirisys ()

[Fragony]

Corrected.

~Jirisys ()

thx

[Louis VI the Fat]

That didn't even happen in the Arab world. Unless Sudan is suddenly a part of the Arab world. Which y'know, is kinda, odd.

¿Sudán no es árabe?


Que cojones.

[Fragony]

omgwtqueWUT?!

[Hax]

¿Sudán no es árabe?


Que cojones.

Hey, did you see the referendum?

It's not as clear cut a part of the Arab world as Egypt or Lebanon, is what I was aiming at.

EDIT: My point remains valid. Heaping in Sudan with the rest of the Arab world when discussing such a broad subject (in this case, the comparative civility of Israel and its Arab neighbours) is somewhat far-fetched.

[Fragony]

Hey, did you see the referendum?

It's not as clear cut a part of the Arab world as Egypt or Lebanon, is what I was aiming at.

EDIT: My point remains valid. Heaping in Sudan with the rest of the Arab world when discussing such a broad subject (in this case, the comparative civility of Israel and its Arab neighbours) is somewhat far-fetched.

Maybe he means the Janjaweed. But this thread isn't about arabland, that is very diverse as you say, it's about the gutmensch fixation on Israel and what triggers it. Again, I think reality proves them that cultures aren't equal, and that is why they grab a magnifying-glass to enhance every imperfection of Israel. They need it to be wicked to protect their ideoligy.

[HoreTore]

Having a kurdish voters since. It's just an example

Amnesty has operations in every dictatorship in the world. They whine about each and every one of them constantly.

Amnesty is made up predominantly of leftists, or what you call "gutmensch". That you don't pay any attention to what the left says doesn't mean we keep silent, frags.

[Fragony]

Amnesty has operations in every dictatorship in the world. They whine about each and every one of them constantly.

Amnesty is made up predominantly of leftists, or what you call "gutmensch". That you don't pay any attention to what the left says doesn't mean we keep silent, frags.

Not interested in NGO's I'm interested in what makes Israel so special to gutmensch. If you don't mind me saying your doomsday argument of the Norwegian supporting Kurds, que? Should that change anything? Nothing is ever 100%, 99% remains a lot

Tiny addition (not at you), if you hold Israel more accountable for flaws because it's a democratic state, isn't that in itself acknowledging it's superiority

[Papewaio]

The better the country should be the more bitter we get about its actions.

Higher expectations are granted on those we expect more of. Applies to parents, politicians, friends and nations. It's not racist, or anti-religious or hatred, its just human.

USA gets a lot of bad press, what isn't generally acknowledged is these are generally minor points off a large stockpile (goodwill not nukes). Generally though a democracy is compared with the pool of other democracies. As such Israel, is not the number one example of what people expect.

Methinks it is the French speaking democracy that is one of the best.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Canada.

[PanzerJaeger]

Grammar senselessness.

~Jirisys ()

Corrected.

[Fragony]

Corrected.

Too funny but I won't blame it on his culture, why not dance the flamingo instead, 1, 2 , gah gah gah

[HoreTore]

Not interested in NGO's I'm interested in what makes Israel so special to gutmensch. If you don't mind me saying your doomsday argument of the Norwegian supporting Kurds, que? Should that change anything? Nothing is ever 100%, 99% remains a lot

Tiny addition (not at you), if you hold Israel more accountable for flaws because it's a democratic state, isn't that in itself acknowledging it's superiority

Not interested in NGO's? Then you will have to explain what "gutmensch" are, because most leftists, and every high-profile one, are involved in organizations like amnesty. Including myself(red cross).

Also, Israel, a democratic state, being superior to the dictatorships around it is a blinding flash of the obvious. Who has ever made the argument that Israeli civil society is worse than (as an example) Syrian civil society?

We hold Israel to the standards expected of a democracy, ie. what I expect of my own government. There is not one thing Israel has been critized for that I would not have critized my own government for doing. That's the theory, but in practice Israel is held to a lower standard and gets much less criticism than any of the other democratic states get.

[HoreTore]

Also Frags, the main focus area of the european left, especially the revolutionary left, hasn't been Palestine since the kibbutz movement dissipated. Since the 50/60's, the main focus has been latin america. That's where the main international focus of the left is. The Israel conflict is mainly a christian thing.

Cuba, Chile and Colombia; not Israel, Syria and Egypt.

[Fragony]

Also Frags, the main focus area of the european left, especially the revolutionary left, hasn't been Palestine since the kibbutz movement dissipated. Since the 50/60's, the main focus has been latin america. That's where the main international focus of the left is. The Israel conflict is mainly a christian thing.

Cuba, Chile and Colombia; not Israel, Syria and Egypt.

If you say so

[Centurion1]

Also Frags, the main focus area of the european left, especially the revolutionary left, hasn't been Palestine since the kibbutz movement dissipated. Since the 50/60's, the main focus has been latin america. That's where the main international focus of the left is. The Israel conflict is mainly a christian thing.

Cuba, Chile and Colombia; not Israel, Syria and Egypt.

Nt in America. Those are all side show. It all about africa and the middleast here.

[HoreTore]

Nt in America. Those are all side show. It all about africa and the middleast here.

I take it you mean the left in the democratic party.

As that's a conservative in European terms, it's not what this thread is about, and actually proves my point...

[Idaho]

If you ignore the displacement and theft of Palestinian land. The absence of democratic rights or even citizenship rights for Palestinians. The massive financial and technical aid given by the US and the theft of water from occupied areas, then yes, Israel is a massive success.

I recall during apartheid people used to say that South Africa was a rich and successful state.

[Kralizec]

Talking about gutmensch not the muslims. Never understood the collective outrage of the European left about Israel while they are united in silence when things far more horrible happen in non-Israeli parts of the world, it's taken for granted it doesn't interest them. There has got to be a reason for that. Read an interesting article that boldly tries to understand leftist logic.

Fact, Israel is by far the most succesful country in the region. It's heaps above all others technologically, financially, intellectually, everything-actually. And no matter how much they try to financially help the Palestinians it's of no use.

Is it a existional problem that cultures just aren't equal even when given the same chances. Gutmensch wouldn't be 100% right and there's something deeply wrong about that?

This is one of the oddest arguments I've ever read from you. It's like saying that people hated South Africa during in the Apartheid era because it of its success. [edit - Idaho beat me to it ]

Its success is completely irrelevant, except in the sense that we can and should expect "succesful" countries to act according to their (self)proclaimed superiority. As for "And no matter how much they try to financially help the Palestinians it's of no use", I haven't got the slightest idea what you're talking about. Fact is, despite what politicians say or have said, that Israel has consistently undermined Palestinian efforts to create a stable economy and a state.

And not all people who are critical of Israel or pro-Palestinian are leftists. Dries van Agt is a notable example, and I wouldn't consider myself a leftist either.

[Fragony]

If you ignore the displacement and theft of Palestinian land. The absence of democratic rights or even citizenship rights for Palestinians. The massive financial and technical aid given by the US and the theft of water from occupied areas, then yes, Israel is a massive success.

I recall during apartheid people used to say that South Africa was a rich and successful state.

So what don't start wars, if you do and keep persisting there is at the very least no reason whatsoever to keep them alive. I know who wouldn't when things were any different, good for them it isn't like that

[al Roumi]

Frags, if you can truly find me a guttmensch who is fine with Turkey's treatment of the Kurds and yet anti Israel, I'd be the first to call them a hypocrite.

As the last poster said, its about how a country uses its superiority that makes it "good" or "bad".

if you only think that might is right then you really are well on your way to [godwin]

[jirisys]

Too funny; but I won't blame it on his culture, why not dance the flamenco instead? 1, 2 , gah gah gah.

Corrected.

And I'm not spanish. I'm salvadorean. Meaning you do not know a single thing about my culture.

I'm also Chilean. So riddle me that.

If you ignore the displacement and theft of Palestinian land. The absence of democratic rights or even citizenship rights for Palestinians. The massive financial and technical aid given by the US and the theft of water from occupied areas, then yes, Israel is a massive success.

I recall during apartheid people used to say that South Africa was a rich and successful state.

So what don't start wars, if you do and keep persisting there is at the very least no reason whatsoever to keep them alive. I know who wouldn't when things were any different, good for them it isn't like that

?... That made almost no sense.

Why not start a war? Most countries now are afraid of wars. They only war against those oponents who invade or those who will succumb eventually to it's forces.

The only major country at war today is the US with Lybia (aided by the NATO) and Afgha-Iraqistan. You do not obviously war against someone when MAD is assured.

That's why economical wars are in place today.

One's culture is defined by conflict. Many nations find themselves in it; or find themselves lacking.

~Jirsys ()

[al Roumi]

So what don't start wars, if you do and keep persisting there is at the very least no reason whatsoever to keep them alive. I know who wouldn't when things were any different, good for them it isn't like that

Not sure what your cryptic second sentence is refering to but lets get this straight, there was significant Israeli terrorism under the British Mandate, seeking to hasten the creation of a Jewish country.

You say "they" (i guess the palestinians and Arabs?) shouldn't have started and shouldn't continue the conflict. Tell me who actually started the conflict in the first place?

My understanding is that it was neither Israelis or Palestinians but rather the west that "started" this conflict. How? By plonked the Jews down in Palestine (yes there were already some jews there, but they lived IN Palestine) and carving out a new country in the middle and on the top of another.

[al Roumi]

Corrected.

And I'm not spanish. I'm salvadorean. Meaning you do not know a single thing about my culture.

Neither should you expect him to, you don't even worship the holy Tulip! What an ignorant culture it is you have.

[Fragony]

Corrected.

And I'm not spanish. I'm salvadorean. Meaning you do not know a single thing about my culture.

~Jirsys ()

Don't we all, where can I buy one of these bamboo-flutes at least it would be something to remember you by

[Centurion1]

I take it you mean the left in the democratic party.

As that's a conservative in European terms, it's not what this thread is about, and actually proves my point...

Believe it or not conservatives support charity as well.

Edit: Bamboo is not native to el savador.