Predestination, John Calvin

[Rhyfelwyr]

It is said that Jesus died on the cross to open up heaven for those who came after and before him. Jesus also cured us of our innate original sin more than anything else. Sins which we as individuals commit wit hour free will are not forgiven because Jesus died on a cross. Our original sin however is healed.

God only knows what such flowery language is supposed to actually mean.

btw don't try praying through Aquinas because he is very upset with you...

The only thing I'm taking away from this is that 'my Jesus is bigger than your Jesus'.

That's what I love about Calvinism, it's all about Jesus. Jesus died for my sins, Jesus led me to saving faith, and Jesus keeps me going every day!

Cent says himself that Jesus didn't die for him, he chooses to have faith himself and he keeps himself safe from sin every day.

And they say the God of Calvinism is heartless!

Anyway, at least it seems that Cent will be able to hold his head high when he comes before God on the day of judgment!

[Centurion1]

God only knows what such flowery language is supposed to actually mean.

btw don't try praying through Aquinas because he is very upset with you...



That's what I love about Calvinism, it's all about Jesus. Jesus died for my sins, Jesus led me to saving faith, and Jesus keeps me going every day!

Cent says himself that Jesus didn't die for him, he chooses to have faith himself and he keeps himself safe from sin every day.

And they say the God of Calvinism is heartless!

Anyway, at least it seems that Cent will be able to hold his head high when he comes before God on the day of judgment!

The twisting of my words does naught to make your own correct.

Jesus saves me from original sin placed upon the souls of man by the acts of Adam and Eve. I hold in my own hands my fate regarding all my other sins. Jesus' death on the cross will not result in me being forgiven for murdering a man tommorow. Jesus' death saves me from original sin and gives me the chance to repent of all sins i commit later but it does not mean i will be healed of those later sins.

And Tomas of Aquino is not the be all end all of Catholic Theology.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The twisting of my words does naught to make your own correct.

Jesus saves me from original sin placed upon the souls of man by the acts of Adam and Eve. I hold in my own hands my fate regarding all my other sins. Jesus' death on the cross will not result in me being forgiven for murdering a man tommorow. Jesus' death saves me from original sin and gives me the chance to repent of all sins i commit later but it does not mean i will be healed of those later sins.

And Tomas of Aquino is not the be all end all of Catholic Theology.

Well the beliefs you are displaying here don't seem to come from any (major at least) strain of Catholic thought. Got any sources (preferably Biblical)?

Jesus' death on the cross will not result in me being forgiven for murdering a man tommorow.

So do you not believe that you commit murder every day?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The twisting of my words does naught to make your own correct.

Jesus saves me from original sin placed upon the souls of man by the acts of Adam and Eve. I hold in my own hands my fate regarding all my other sins. Jesus' death on the cross will not result in me being forgiven for murdering a man tommorow. Jesus' death saves me from original sin and gives me the chance to repent of all sins i commit later but it does not mean i will be healed of those later sins.

And Tomas of Aquino is not the be all end all of Catholic Theology.

This is not Catholic, or catholic. All major Christian denominations hold that salvation comes exclusively through Faith, even the Roman Church. In so far as your actions have an effect it is non the ammount of penitence required and therefore spent in purgatory.

[Rhyfelwyr]

This is not Catholic, or catholic. All major Christian denominations hold that salvation comes exclusively through Faith, even the Roman Church. In so far as your actions have an effect it is non the ammount of penitence required and therefore spent in purgatory.

I always knew you would jump to my defence in this thread!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I always knew you would jump to my defence in this thread!

Well, he's some sort of Papist, isn't he?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well, he's some sort of Papist, isn't he?

lulz

The thing is its no longer just about the Catholic Church. Gone are my days of being the typical hardline Reformed Calvinist. I have now disavowed my association with mainstream Protestantism (even traditional Calvinism) since I think too much of it is remants of Romanism.

I've got a new narrative where there is no theonomy and everything is based on natural law and in that sense the scripture just states what is written on our hearts by nature (it even says that). And as such all organised religion is Babylonian and idolatrous and a hearkback to the bondage of the law.

I actually think its a really good narrative and fits in really well with Revelation since it coincides with the return of the Jews to their homeland and the establishment of the one world religion. Although I am going against the letter of the Protestant reformers I think that I have the spirit of Reformation - rooting out idolatry and getting back to the scripture.

Reading that back it sounds pretty damn crazy. At least its a nice counterbalance to your annoying moderation!

[Centurion1]

This is not Catholic, or catholic. All major Christian denominations hold that salvation comes exclusively through Faith, even the Roman Church. In so far as your actions have an effect it is non the ammount of penitence required and therefore spent in purgatory.

Faith alone will not send you to heaven the catholic churches doctrine says this. Non catholics and even atheists can go to heaven so long as they live a good and moral life. Maybe whatever medieval theology you ascribe too doesn't allow non believers into paradise but the modern Roman Catholic church believes in a little something called inclusivism. Your just wrong in believing that faith alone in Christ can save your soul.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Faith alone will not send you to heaven the catholic churches doctrine says this. Non catholics and even atheists can go to heaven so long as they live a good and moral life. Maybe whatever medieval theology you ascribe too doesn't allow non believers into paradise but the modern Roman Catholic church believes in a little something called inclusivism. Your just wrong in believing that faith alone in Christ can save your soul.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong - the Roman Catholic Church has signed agreements with protestant Churchs to the effect that you are wrong.

What I should have said, however, is that salvation comes exclusively through Christ, not Faith. Faith, fidas is the holding but it is what you hold which is important. Now, where others, even atheists might be included is in the space between Christ and Christ's teachings. I think the general line is that so long as you ask for forgiveness you may be allowed into heaven.

Of course, this disallows the self-justifying New Atheists who demand everything on their own terms.

[Centurion1]

I'm sorry, but you are wrong - the Roman Catholic Church has signed agreements with protestant Churchs to the effect that you are wrong.

What I should have said, however, is that salvation comes exclusively through Christ, not Faith. Faith, fidas is the holding but it is what you hold which is important. Now, where others, even atheists might be included is in the space between Christ and Christ's teachings. I think the general line is that so long as you ask for forgiveness you may be allowed into heaven.

Of course, this disallows the self-justifying New Atheists who demand everything on their own terms.

Inclusivism has been the position of the Roman Catholic church since Vatican two in the 1960's. Inclusivism as proposed by Karl Rahner states that while Catholicism is right and whatever salvation you receive is from Jesus Christ other religious paths can reach the same paradise as a Catholic. The most important thing for an individual to do is to lead a moral lifestyle which mirrors the teachings of Jesus. Jesus' moral teachings being pretty basic to any decent person on earth.

So no you are incorrect. The church does not believe that you have to convert to reach heaven, though it may help you.

I believe the latin you are looking for is fides not fidas.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Karl Rahner states that while Catholicism is right and whatever salvation you receive is from Jesus Christ other religious paths can reach the same paradise as a Catholic.

But what does Jesus state?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Inclusivism has been the position of the Roman Catholic church since Vatican two in the 1960's. Inclusivism as proposed by Karl Rahner states that while Catholicism is right and whatever salvation you receive is from Jesus Christ other religious paths can reach the same paradise as a Catholic. The most important thing for an individual to do is to lead a moral lifestyle which mirrors the teachings of Jesus. Jesus' moral teachings being pretty basic to any decent person on earth.

So no you are incorrect. The church does not believe that you have to convert to reach heaven, though it may help you.

And yet.... John Paul II authorised a Catechism that says Faith in Christ is necessary, and Vatican II is pretty much in tatters now anyway.

I believe the latin you are looking for is fides not fidas.

How drol. I must confess I did not check for the correct case before posting.