The Jewish Lobby

[PanzerJaeger]

Re-posted as per Hooahguy's request.

Dear PJ:
I have been recently made aware of your post in the backroom about the Jewish lobby.
I have also noticed that you are grouping AIPAC and Jews in one group.

I want to tell you something. I love this country. It has given me everything I could ever want. Except a girlfriend who sticks with me longer than a year, but I guess thats my problem.
Anyhow, I love this country, and thats why I plan to fight for it. I plan to enlist in the US Army after I return from my year abroad. I plan to take an oath to defend this country, this country, not Israel, from all threats, foreign and internal.

That being said, I vehemently protest your grouping of Jews and the Jewish Lobby. Yes, the vast majority of Jews are pro-Israel, but thats to be expected. But to say that Jews are out to destroy America is just flat-out wrong.
Most love America, and while you have every now and then the nutjob who does want to put Israel before the US, most are apathetic about it all.

Dont get me wrong. I truly believe that the Israel lobby is way too strong. It needs to be curtailed.
But do not group AIPAC with Jews. Jews are not trying to take down this country. This is not the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Best regards,
Hooahguy

PS: PJ, if you would be so kind as to post this in the Backroom as to make my position clear, that would be appreciated.

I discussed this with him over Steam, but just to be explicitly clear, I am refering to Zionist Jews in this thread. As discussed in my original link (that I guess no one actually read; that's ok) Zionist Jews =/= Jews. They are a powerful minority within the greater, mainstream Jewish population in America. Their loyalty lies with Israel, despite their American citizenship, and they have no qualms about using American power to further Israel's interests.

The core of the Lobby is comprised of American Jews who make a significant effort in their daily lives to bend U.S. foreign policy so that it advances Israel’s interests. Their activities go beyond merely voting for candidates who are pro‐Israel to include letter‐writing, financial contributions, and supporting pro‐Israel organizations. But not all Jewish‐Americans are part of the Lobby, because Israel is not a salient issue for many of them. In a 2004 survey, for example, roughly 36 percent of Jewish‐Americans said they were either “not very” or “not at all” emotionally attached to Israel.60

Jewish‐Americans also differ on specific Israeli policies. Many of the key organizations in the Lobby, like AIPAC and the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations (CPMJO), are run by hardliners who generally supported the expansionist policies of Israel’s Likud Party, including its hostility to the Oslo Peace Process. The bulk of U.S. Jewry, on the other hand, is more favorably disposed to making concessions to the Palestinians, and a few groups—such as Jewish Voice for Peace—strongly advocate such steps.61 Despite these differences, moderates and hardliners both support steadfast U.S. support for Israel.

Not surprisingly, American Jewish leaders often consult with Israeli officials, so that the former can maximize their influence in the United States. As one activist with a major Jewish organization wrote, “it is routine for us to say: ‘This is our 14 policy on a certain issue, but we must check what the Israelis think.’ We as a community do it all the time.”62 There is also a strong norm against criticizing Israeli policy, and Jewish‐American leaders rarely support putting pressure on Israel. Thus, Edgar Bronfman Sr., the president of the World Jewish Congress, was accused of “perfidy” when he wrote a letter to President Bush in mid‐2003 urging Bush to pressure Israel to curb construction of its controversial “security fence.”63 Critics declared that, “It would be obscene at any time for the president of the World Jewish Congress to lobby the president of the United States to resist policies being promoted by the government of Israel.”

Similarly, when Israel Policy Forum president Seymour Reich advised Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to pressure Israel to reopen a critical border crossing in the Gaza Strip in November 2005, critics denounced his action as “irresponsible behavior,” and declared that, “There is absolutely no room in the Jewish mainstream for actively canvassing against the security‐related policies . . . of Israel.”64 Recoiling from these attacks, Reich proclaimed that “the word pressure is not in my vocabulary when it comes to Israel.”
Jewish‐Americans have formed an impressive array of organizations to influence American foreign policy, of which AIPAC is the most powerful and well‐known. In 1997, Fortune magazine asked members of Congress and their staffs to list the most powerful lobbies in Washington.65 AIPAC was ranked second behind the American Association of Retired People (AARP), but ahead of heavyweight lobbies like the AFL‐CIO and the National Rifle Association. A National Journal study in March 2005 reached a similar conclusion, placing AIPAC in second place (tied with AARP) in the Washington’s “muscle rankings.”66

[Papewaio]

You know normally it is the smaller country that has to pretend that it's larger allies interests are its interests.

Political judo or just a fact of who needs who more?

[Strike For The South]

While I haven't had time to formulate an articulate a response worty of my reputation I would just like to say I do not support Israel on any grounds other the geo political and I read your link

Love me?

[Centurion1]

While I haven't had time to formulate an articulate a response worty of my reputation I would just like to say I do not support Israel on any grounds other the geo political and I read your link

Love me?

Here is a cookie and a pat on the head

[Lemur]

20 percent of the U.S. House of Representatives will be using this congressional recess to tour Israel. WHAT THE FUDGE. Do we give this kind of slobbery-mouthed kissing to any other ally? I mean, seriously, what the hell are the congresscritters thinking?

Eighty-one congressmen, or about 20 percent of the US House of Representatives, will visit Israel over the next three weeks during Congress’s summer recess, with the first group of 26 Democrats scheduled to arrive on Monday.

The Democratic delegation will be followed by two Republican ones, bringing a total of 55 Republicans.

[...] The week-long trips are sponsored by the American Israel Education Foundation, a charitable organization affiliated with the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, which brings large delegations of congressmen here every other August.

House Democratic Whip Steny Hoyer (D-Maryland) will head the Democratic delegation, and House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Virginia) will lead one of the Republican groups.

[Ronin]

I mean, seriously, what the hell are the congresscritters thinking?

they are thinking about re-election.

come on..that one was low hanging fruit.

[Adrian II]

20 percent of the U.S. House of Representatives will be using this congressional recess to tour Israel.

It's because of the goils.

AII

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The core of the Lobby is comprised of American Jews who make a significant effort in their daily lives to bend U.S. foreign policy so that it advances Israel’s interests.

Well that's pretty heavy on implication certainly. But I mean, Susan B. Anthony made a significant effort in her daily life to "bend" U.S. domestic policy so that it advanced women's interests.

"Interests" is much too murky a word to rely on for serious talk.



Congressman visiting Israel, good, I would hope our congressman have some first hand experience of things like that.

[rasoforos]

Re-posted as per Hooahguy's request.
Their loyalty lies with Israel, despite their American citizenship, and they have no qualms about using American power to further Israel's interests.

Says someone with a Panzer as a sig, german origin, and well documented Right Wing views...

Why does the US support Israel? Its Realpolitik! Simple as that. For the same reason it was no problem selling F-15 planes to Saudi at the same time. For the same reason Osama bin Laden was made into a freedom fighter and then into a terrorist. Its what made the U.S a superpower in the first place. The ability to promote the country's interests without moral or cultural burdens. From my point of view there is absolutely no need for endless posts on a matter where things are simple.

[Slyspy]

The argument being made is that the support of Israel is not in the best interests of the US. Or that, at least, the level of support is disproportionate to the benefit received. If this is the case then such support ceases to be Realpolitik.

[Vladimir]

Says someone with a Panzer as a sig, german origin, and well documented Fascist views...

Why does the US support Israel? Its Realpolitik! Simple as that. For the same reason it was no problem selling F-15 planes to Saudi at the same time. For the same reason Osama bin Laden was made into a freedom fighter and then into a terrorist. Its what made the U.S a superpower in the first place. The ability to promote the country's interests without moral or cultural burdens. From my point of view there is absolutely no need for endless posts on a matter where things are simple.

Godwin?

[Montmorency]

Louis already did it in this thread, except humorously.

[Vladimir]

Louis already did it in this thread, except humorously.

Shoot! Thanks for the correction.

To contribute something meaningful: For all their faults supporting the Jewish lobby is far better than supporting those directly opposing them.

[Lemur]

supporting the Jewish lobby is far better than supporting those directly opposing them.

I do not understand why it is in our national interest to support either. Where is it written than we must choose sides in the Israeli/Palestinian Axis of Stupidity? Why is any of it our fight?

[Hax]

Also, false dilemma. "With them or against them", well, international politics don't really work that way.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I do not understand why it is in our national interest to support either. Where is it written than we must choose sides in the Israeli/Palestinian Axis of Stupidity? Why is any of it our fight?

This. When presented with the choice between Israeli hardliners and Palestinian hardliners, pick 'none of the above'.


Why should the world revolve around a conflict about three square miles of Middle Eastern desert?
I mean, why not let global politics be held hostage by the etnic conflicts on New Caledonia? The same size after all. Or, have the UN Security Council occupy itself nearly fulltime with the Western Sahara? Much more desert, plenty of displaced people, complicated history of post-colonialism and occupation. Why not send twenty percent of US members of Congress to this part of the desert? Surely it is worth studying?

The Middle East conflict is the concern of the world simply because it is the concern of the world. Because Western and Middle Eastern governments, for different reasons, have been pushed into taking a position in the conflict, until it became an automatism. It has become unquestioned, natural, to have a strong opinion about the Middle Eastern conflict One looks a provicial for not having intimate knowledge about, a strong position in the conflict.

But why should that be? What if it isn't any of our concern to begin with? I mean, in the Eastern Congo they seem to manage to keep up their conflict for decades on end perfectly fine without outside involvement. They don't seem to need us to sustain their conflict.



Louis - 'if only they would've had a good psychiatric hospital in Jerusalem, the world would've been a peaceful place the past three thousand years'.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Godwin?

Nobody out-Godwins Louis.



Louis - confused fascist antifascist.

[rasoforos]

Godwin?

My dear Vladimir this topic had reached 100% Godwin ab initio :)

[Vladimir]

My dear Vladimir this topic had reached 100% Godwin ab initio :)

Ahh. New Latin phrase. Thanks.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Ahh. New Latin phrase. Thanks.

Pax vu biscum.

[Vladimir]

Pax vu biscum.

I'm waiting for someone to start quoting Life of Brian because I don't want to risk the warning points. Wait, those are names.

But yes, thank you.

[Centurion1]

gah

[PanzerJaeger]

Says someone with a Panzer as a sig, german origin, and well documented Right Wing views...

rasoforos. I haven't seen that name around the forum in many years. It's good to see you posting again.

Why does the US support Israel? Its Realpolitik! Simple as that. For the same reason it was no problem selling F-15 planes to Saudi at the same time. For the same reason Osama bin Laden was made into a freedom fighter and then into a terrorist. Its what made the U.S a superpower in the first place. The ability to promote the country's interests without moral or cultural burdens. From my point of view there is absolutely no need for endless posts on a matter where things are simple.

If only it were that simple... Unfortunately, the situation is very much the opposite of that which would be expected under realpolitik - one that can only be described as the subservience of a global superpower to a tiny, geopolitically meaningless country. Israel is completely reliant on America, not the other way around. And yet, Israel's will is sacrosanct and her national security objectives, economic priorities, and even the fleeting whims of her political class become America's. Why is that? The powerful Jewish lobby has a stranglehold on America's political structure.

[Papewaio]

Why? Its what happens when you mix church with state (from the point of view that you have relatively religious politicians who wear it with pride)... end with very strange decisions based not on economics but religious geography to keep their voters happy.

Could be worse, you could be a buddhist country trying to support Tibet. 'China please leave Tibet or we will have to write you a stern note. And if you really upset us we will set ourselves on fire.'... kind of like the UN with more firepower.

[Lemur]

Here's an amazing interview with Tony Judt, shortly after the flotilla raid. Quoted for truth.

The characterization that comes to mind is "autistic." Israel behaved in a way that suggests it is no longer fully able to estimate, assess or understand the way other people think about it. Even if you supported the blockade (I don't) this would be an almost exemplary case of shooting oneself in a painful part of the anatomy.

Firstly because it alienates Turkey, who Israel needs in the longer run. Secondly because it was undertaken in international waters and largely at the expense of civilian victims. Thirdly because it was an overreaction. Fourthly because it had the predictable effect of weakening the case for a blockade rather than strengthening it.

In short, this is the action of a country which is fast losing touch with reality. [...]

Israel should be much, much more afraid of the Israel it's creating for itself: a semi-democratic, demagogic, far-right warrior state dominated by racist Russians and crazed rabbis. In this perspective, an internationally policed and guaranteed federal state of Israel, with the same rights and resources for Jews and Arabs, looks a lot less frightening to me. [...]

Israel is behaving very much like the annoying little Judean state that the Romans finally dismantled in frustration. This classical analogy may be more relevant than we think. I suspect that in decades to come America (the new Rome) will abandon Israel as annoying, expensive, and a liability.

Honestly, Israel's behavior in the past couple of years is beyond understanding. Describing it as "autistic" is fair and accurate. Alienating Turkey? Madness. Alienating Egypt? Madness. Dissing the current President and depending on a single party in the USA (which may or may not hold power in any given year)? Madness. It's as though Israel wants to be isolated, friendless and vulnerable.

[Hax]

Autism would be incorrect, I believe not all of the Knesset or indeed, the Likud party has gone to hell. Misplaced arrogance would likely come closer, they probably think they're invincible. And with American support, they pretyt much are. For now, at least.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I don't think he cares too much for Belgium though:

Well, there could be a federal state of two autonomous communities -- on the Swiss or Belgian model (don't tell me the latter doesn't work -- it works very well but is opposed by Flemings led by people very much like [Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu and [Foreign Minister Avigdor] Lieberman)

... That's rather a weird comparison to make.

[classical_hero]

Re-posted as per Hooahguy's request.




I discussed this with him over Steam, but just to be explicitly clear, I am refering to Zionist Jews in this thread. As discussed in my original link (that I guess no one actually read; that's ok) Zionist Jews =/= Jews. They are a powerful minority within the greater, mainstream Jewish population in America. Their loyalty lies with Israel, despite their American citizenship, and they have no qualms about using American power to further Israel's interests.

When you speak of Zionism, you are speaking of the Jews. http://www.jewish-history.com/mlk_zionism.html

During an appearance at Harvard University shortly before his death, a student stood up and asked King to address himself to the issue of Zionism. The question was clearly hostile. King responded, “When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”

[Tellos Athenaios]

My irony detector just went off. You didn't link to that source to support that claim (anti-Zionism == anti-semitism), did you?

[Hax]

Because it is bordering on Islamic extremism, military coup, and involved in a bloody multi-decade civil war.

None of that. I dislike Erdogan and his Islamic rhetoric, but bordering on Islamic extremism? Not really.

Military coups have occured in the past, but it's unlikely that it'll happen again. Who knows, though? This multi-decade civil war you're talking about concerns the Kurds, I assume. I think you're making it larger than the way it is in reality.