Your own TW style game: What features would you like to see?

[Sylon]

The ability to upgrade an existing veteran unit to a different unit. For example, upgrading a 3 chevron hastati unit into a 1 chevron principes unit, at a cost. Alternatively, being able to upgrade a unit of veteran levy phalangitai into a proper, professional phalangitai unit.

[TiberiusClaudiusMarcellus]

Hey guys! Tiberius Claudius Marcellus here (used to play the BtSH PBM), but stopped coming around because of no internet at home and restrictions on the work's internet.

Glad to be back, and anxiously awaiting EB 2. (An EB-style mod (Japanese) for S2:TW would be awesome!)

OT: I'd like to see the ability to take over regions of provinces instead of the whole thing at once, say divide them up into 10 or so smaller areas representing real world geographic separations (mountain spines, the valleys), collections or individual historic small towns, and natural resources (mines, forests, ship yards/ports, etc).

It would make the game extremely in-depth on the strat map. You zoom in and the world map with its general details fades into a detailed map of the province in question, divided up into its own little sub-regions. Imagine moving your army - and splitting it up into small groups - set out to hold a village blocking the main road while your main force circumnavigates and hits the main target or splits up further to take over / blockade resource areas or rural population centers.

Each of these little sub-regions would have their own loyalties, their own bonuses, descriptions, and could allow more realistic and slower expansion to simulate the ebb and flow of populations/culture, the more realistic actions needed to invade, conquer, and subjugate/liberate a large area, and make the map look more realistic instead of huge chunks of the planet suddenly changing color in one turn. Perhaps have a timer/counter that tracks an adjusts loyalty in each sub-region based on its base value, how long it has been in control of a faction, how strong military forces are, etc. At some point the loyalty would permanently flip into the holder's favor, but before that, leaving it untended would prove disastrous.

[Ichon]

Actual incentive not to always conquest everything. IE- capturing and dominating culture of an entire region should be quite tough and require long investment of resources. Cheaper would be win a few battles and perhaps kill an Emperor and his Heir and acquire a client kingdom which pays tribute and initially (in the lifetime of the next leader) lends military aid. Continuing military help after the death of the first leader who made the deal with the winners would require reduction of the tribute or a full alliance that also gives help not just takes it. So a player might be faced with the choice to win a few battles and secure a peace for unknown length of time(new leader could die in a battle against other enemies or rebels in 1 turn or live 20 turns) or complete conquest of a region that forces to maintain strong garrisons or face uprising and no internal succession crises or similar for that captured region to actually adopt conquerors culture. Something like 200 turns though after 50 turns the captured region could get reduced garrisons and supply some of its own military manpower to help out the ruling power. If this system could vary by culture and ethnos even better. IE- if Greek culture had an overall score in the world depending how well it was doing that gave foreign cultures harder or easier time to convert its captured populations. So Syracuse might fall to Rome but if Macedon was expanding for Romans to convert Greeks in Syracuse could take full 200 turns modified by how well Roma culture was doing. If Epirus on the other hand conquered Syracuse then it might take only 100 turns as they both share Greek culture.

I am not a fan of realtime (get enough of that in Paradox games)for campaign turns though I really do think the turns should be random. Sometimes your enemy moves first, twice in a row, sometimes you do. Would create many more 'surprise' attacks and missed reinforcements etc as actually happened quite often but is very hard to replicate in game.

If the above system could also have succession crises when there is not a strong official Heir that client kingdoms break away or choose to support the nearest contender. If Capitol turned rebel and the various contenders had to either kill competing contenders, or take and hold Capitol for 10 turns or something but not complete break of the realm where half goes rebel and has to be re-taken. However client kingdoms and regions in the process of being converted to occupiers culture could break away or rise in rebellion that could be interesting. So as a player you might choose more often client kingdoms until you got a strong young Heir who should be able to keep the Kingdom stable for at least the first 50 turns when the chances of rebellion in occupied regions is highest.

The final part would be robust diplomacy with AI gains favoring enemy of enemy is friend and goals based on strength of the strongest neighboring kingdom. If a bunch of small kingdoms are isolated and warring they might always vassalize if winning a war. A small kingdom in between a large neighbor and a slightly smaller neighbor might want to emulate the larger neighbor by growing through taking over the smaller.

Of course periodically in rebel regions or in regions undergoing succession crises new factions from a list of historical factions might arise. Or if a culture has a very low world world score and its Emperor and Heir are killed some of its regions could erupt into a new faction and culture with a relatively high world score from being fresh on the scene.

Larger and larger kingdoms would require either very high world culture score or very high authority of the king. So expanding doesn't get easier if you conquer similar cultures as the overall cultural score might actually relatively decline if other cultures are doing better. Also the largest kingdoms would need to exist with very high cultural score or face constant succession crises without both a strong king and heir.

I am ok with small graphics and battle AI improvements(AI keep its damn general alive) from the level in Shogun 2. Better would be to make different terrains and troops types have more penalties or bonuses according to their tactical roles. Basic infantry spearmen as the generic 'everything' unit with small bonus vs cavalry in frontal charge in open terrain while cavalry in rough terrain get a larger penalty while spearmen have neither penalty nor bonus in that same rough terrain. Units fighting a foreign culture on the foreign land have a small morale penalty while defenders on their own soil get a morale bonus.

[Ibrahim]

what I want? well, a lot. most of these are more pipe dreams though, than what is objectively possible (I'm not a good programmer, so how possible all this is, I dunno). some of my ideas reflect my dark mindset; others, my desire to simulate warfare in the 1750's, and still others, just for realism's sake.

General:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1-a more moddable engine. hardcodes need to be loosened, or eliminated alltogether (depending on the feature in question)
2-more efficient programming, so that more can be done with less memory. (if possible-I'm not a computer programmer, so I don't know if it is possible). none of the trouble we have with Empire and Napoleon: total war (don't know about S2:TW).
3-seemless transitions between strat and battle maps.
4-beyond that, the general idea is sound. turn based strat, realtime battlemap. best I've seen yet IMHO.

Campaign:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1-a higher province limit-or none if possible.
2-more than one sea province-if possible.
3-a threat assessment and tradeoff assessment script for the AI. Diplomacy shouldn't be suitable for idiots, but for real rulers-and players, who no doubt suffer the exacerbating effects of an unreasonable diplomacy. no one deserves to be forced to download a force diplomacy script (no, I am not saying the FD script for RTW mods is bad or unhelpful-the opposite in fact; nor should it be taken as a negative comment to FD script designers/modders); it should be part of the game from the get-go.
4-be able to mod AI behavior even more than we can do nowadays. down to being able to remove the silly total war mentality of the AI, so that we don't have armies getting spammed all over the place. most culture IIRC were more into limited warfare, where a single, crushing defeat is enough.
5-be able to commit incest. perverse, but many societies did it. also, be able to "choose" the bride (not just "princesses", but noblewomen, or even commoners).
6-more nuanced government systematic-EB comes closest to what I want, as a default.
7-a more nuanced topographic map: gray-scale sucks at accurately reflecting basic topography.
8-generally more detailed TGA files for maps. M2TW is taking this to the correct direction, but not quite enough.
9-let's take out loans! srsly, states have always taken out loans. why should a total war game be any different?
10-more economy, in the sense of being able to mint coins and standards.
11-the ability to indeed found cities, or better still, to also be able to change province boundaries, or create new ones from scratch.
X-I had a bunch of other ideas, but they're not on my mind atm. when I think them up again, I'll edit here.

battlemap:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1-be able to mod unit formations more flexibly than we can nowadays: it is not enough to dictate distances between man and man. how about if ranks are staggered? where can we place the officers (not every army put them on the right)? we can put say, 2 in front, 7 to the back, and maybe 3 to the right, for the lulz. what about if the unit is staggared? straight? do they cadence march? if so, how well? what is the amount of space present for each man (RTW, and M2TW, aren't that good about this part)? should it be envisioned as a square, or a circle? what is the rate of march? etc.
2-more intuitive and flexible animations, and a looser skeleton system, with looser hardcodes. you never have an idea how much a pain it is to get models to do the 1757 manual of arms, when you have to attach the weapon directly to the hand-bone; equally saddening, is when you can't make only the front rank kneel. Empire total war kinda does that, but poorly (apparently, they never actually studied musket usage). all this is a pet peeve though
3-more flexible missile system (projectiles). this one is more involved then it seems, though I don't want to make people spend 1 hour of their lives explaining all the problems with the system in both games.
4-be able to use multiple special abilities, when and how I want, per unit. ETW kinda does that, but only for specific circumstances (e.g. I can only build trenches in sieges IIRC). If I want to build trenches in the middle of nowhere, I should be able to.
5-a complete gravity engine: we can save space (conceivably) if we got rid of (or minimized) death animations, in favor of a SWAT-4 esque method, where bodies drop in a less rigid manner. this should free up space (I hope) for the next point:
6-have wounded men shown on the battlefield: I want to see (and hear) men writhing from non-lethal, or slow killing injuries. sounds sickening, but it is meant to sicken people (and maybe the AI: perhaps emotions can be simulated?). war isn't a game, so why should a video game partly about it be any different in appearance? it is part of the "edutainment" idea. if I could add smell, I would.
7-the effects of missiles should be graduated: merely hole making the person, going through, blowing off limbs/organs, and vaporizing the victim. and so on. this leads to another concept
8-a more complete, rational physics engine. the gravity and missile effects should be parts of it.
9-no arcade mode playing: I don't want to see people flying 20 feet up into the air cuz a berserker hit them. I doubt anyone on this planet was, or is as strong as Shao Kahn. (warning: graphic MK6 (deception) fatality)
8-internal organs need modelling. I'll leave you to figure this one out. nothing too complex: brains, hear, lungs, guts, and liver.
9-the right to design, or edit from a template of a design, of fortifications. and it shouldn't be a set hard coded list.
10-get this: the ability to name regiments. it's a pet peeve of mine, even in Empire: total war. Hessians were not numbered in the British army, which didn't even use numbers until 1751.
11-the ability (indeed, to confirm some people here), to refit units. what if I want to change uniforms? simplify them? even get rid of them?
12-the ability to directly model in disease and desertion. as well as making supply of the army, and a real medical department.
13-I wanna see people getting bogged down in Flanders mud (like Agincourt), or alternately, native Americans taking deliberate cover behind trees to pick off some scarlet clad loser who thought it was a good idea to wear a shiny silver gorget round his thoat. walking in the rain in a muddy area in RTW or M2TW doesn't lead to people getting stuck, possibly up to their knees.
14-I want to be able to directly defend beeches, or stage amphibious landing on defended beeches-at least in concept.
15-more nuanced sieges: parallels, pavises, more siege weapons, etc.
16-the concept of not just temporary forts and watch towers, but castles, castrae, even great walls. all built separately from the system used in M2TW
17-the concept of "frontlines", piquets, etc. as some here have said, we shouldn't just have to capture a city to get a province-though that should be the default.
18-sappers. we need them. I wanna build my own bridge 'cross the Rhine
19-better ambush interface. it is not enough to be able to hide till the last minute. I want to remain concealed when firing-assuming i have camouflage, or are inside hidden chambers with portholes for shooting.
20-because I'm a sadist: make machine guns a genuine possibility.
21-overall, I'd like simulation possible from prehistory to maybe 1916 (1945 if you really want to stretch it).

[antisocialmunky]

I'm starting to wonder, can't you mod the source engine into an RTS engine?
http://www.hl2wars.com/

Might be fun to just import some EB models into it. I've seen crazier things done.

[fomalhaut]

The ability to upgrade an existing veteran unit to a different unit. For example, upgrading a 3 chevron hastati unit into a 1 chevron principes unit, at a cost. Alternatively, being able to upgrade a unit of veteran levy phalangitai into a proper, professional phalangitai unit.

this simply can't be a true reflection of reality, the units are an abstraction of the roughly the same people of a social class. Levies being 'promoted' like that en masse is wholly unrealistic, a group of farmers don't simply become citizens, which is what a professional soldier would be.

[Ichon]

Weren't many of the class divisions based on age though? Just like modern times it takes a decade or few to accumulate wealth and the lower tier warriors might still be 'citizen' and come from good families but not have the wealth or experience to be considered a phalangitai or principes? Although I am not sure if this works across all civilizations or would be worth the effort.

[Foot]

Weren't many of the class divisions based on age though? Just like modern times it takes a decade or few to accumulate wealth and the lower tier warriors might still be 'citizen' and come from good families but not have the wealth or experience to be considered a phalangitai or principes? Although I am not sure if this works across all civilizations or would be worth the effort.

I think his point is that a Hastati unit in a game such as TW is not the same group of people fighting over a number of years, such that after a certain number of years they all progress to the rank of Principes because they have all reached that age. A unit in TW is just a body of men of a certain class, the individuals that make up that class will certainly change over time. Over time the individuals who make up that unit will change in small numbers. Perhaps in one week, a group of 5 or so reach an age where they are then reorganised into a Principes unit, while in that same week five new individuals replace them from some other unit.

You are trying to represent minutiae as an important gameplay mechanic, and so it stops being historical and starts being gamey. Its important to maintain the correct perspective across the game to ensure that what you represent is relevant to your representation. Focusing on small things that aren't important to your chosen perspective is what TW do, and what I wish they wouldn't.

Foot

[fomalhaut]

Weren't many of the class divisions based on age though? Just like modern times it takes a decade or few to accumulate wealth and the lower tier warriors might still be 'citizen' and come from good families but not have the wealth or experience to be considered a phalangitai or principes? Although I am not sure if this works across all civilizations or would be worth the effort.

as Foot said, this could perhaps be done on an individual basis, but not per taxeis/cohort/unit and thus could not be reflected in the game engine meaningfully.

I completely disagree, Civilization has gone done a path I cannot follow in recent iterations. If you want how diplomacy, culture, politick and warfare should feel on a macro level Alpha Centauri is the standard. Turn based then real time battles are the way to go though, real time? leave that to those games where you trade men for meat and swords turn buildings on fire by wacking them (Age of Empires or whatever)

[Ca Putt]

The problem of promoted units mainly arises because a) many players don't train armies that give the entire spectrum of society (through financial problems or because they like to spam a certain unit) and b) most campaigns don't take a season or maybe two but several years due to the 4tpy which in turn makes it strange to run around with a unit of ... jugunthiz for 5 years as by that time they'd probably all be dugunthiz. With more tpy or realtime this "problem" would be somewhat removed as a campaign can end at harvest time.

[I_damian]

Obviously I would like an AI that is actually intelligent, or at least able to keep its army in formation and carry out simple manouvers, such as keeping spearmen in reserve to counter your cavalry, or using their cavalry to take out your cavalry rather than just using it to headbutt your front lines and die. But since games now are about shiny shiny and nothing more, I can't have that.

SO! What I would like that I can think of off the top of my head: Unlimited factions so that every historical people can be represented in mods, and I would also like for there to be some recognition of human and AI behaviour. If I'm good and I don't attack my allies, the longer I don't attack them, the more loyal they should become, until a point is reached where nothing will make them declare war except me doing something really, really bad. Empire had this, kind of, but it was just a little box that said your allies trust you. In reality, if you shared a border, they were going to attack eventually, no matter how many gifts you have.

Above everything else though, I would love for it to become more difficult to manage your faction as it grows bigger and in to an empire, as historically was. This has kind of been present in all the TW games so far, but for example in RTW, a settlement far away might rebel, but only that settlement, and they would throw out the troops and governor. What should happen, is the settlement should rebel WITH the governor and troops, declare independence, and other cities around it should join in to form a proper faction. This happened in MTW, why they took it out is just baffling.

[Ibrahim]

The problem of promoted units mainly arises because a) many players don't train armies that give the entire spectrum of society (through financial problems or because they like to spam a certain unit) and b) most campaigns don't take a season or maybe two but several years due to the 4tpy which in turn makes it strange to run around with a unit of ... jugunthiz for 5 years as by that time they'd probably all be dugunthiz. With more tpy or realtime this "problem" would be somewhat removed as a campaign can end at harvest time.

or, you could just implement a mechanic that allows for individuals in the first unit to be transferred to the nearest Dugunthiz unit (or even create a new one), as soon as the unit gains a certain level of xp.

so maybe:

1 bronze chevron: 5 dugunthiz
2: another 5
3: another 5

It's just another suggestion.

and so on.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

What I so far forgot to mention:

- decimation of your troops on campaign due to sickness, famine, and bad weather! In reality by far the biggest share of casualties was due to these factors.

- blood and mutilation on the battlefield! But that's not a top priority I admit.