US gubmint shutdown + default + subprime sequel?

[a completely inoffensive name]

But you'd have to prove that they said it and if there are signs saying that at any big gathering, they wouldn't count.

See what I did there?

Of course silly me. There is no such thing as a radical/racist/prejudiced group because no matter what people in it say, there are similar statements in all the other big groups so they must actually be on the level because every single poll says that they don't consider themselves to be radical/racist/prejudice.

I mean, the KKK at its heart is actually just a southern heritage club, I mean sure there are statements that are out there in its demonstrations all the time but it isn't anything that is not seen in other groups as well.

[PanzerJaeger]

You believe as you like, Panzer. You're resorting to burden of proof arguments in the realm of political charcterizations which is a really bad application of logic and most likely just a means to 'win' an argument in the face of overwhelming common sense. After all, I could pull out a hard stat that 85% of Tea Party people dislike blacks and you could say "oh but that's not racism." It's fairly clear in the exchange here that this is your style given that you could not even concede that Obama being called out as a Kenyan or Muslim has anything to do with race at all and tried to make some ridiculous dismissal that the same would happen to anyone with an unusual family heritage... the fact that few Americans would even ask where a white candidate's grandparents came from is just beside the point, right?

Prove to me that the vast majority of left wingers are not communist, anti-american, anti-semetic lunatics. Here are a bunch of signs from an anti-war rally on March 20, 2010 that vaguely reinforce my assertion.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Surely you can see the weakness of your position?

Your demand for evidence is a clever way to support your denial...

Really?

Is it really that obtuse to ask for evidence of racism before applying the label to such a wide swath of people? When did supposition replace proof as the basic standard on which we base factual discussions?

There is a name for such unprovable known-knowns. Faith.

[Koga No Goshi]

We gave you proof, signs at almost any large gathering of note. It's not the bearded covered with pins Vietnam vet crazies who just go from one political event to another as lifers who have crazy signs. It's pretty normal everyday people attending Tea Party rallies. There is also any number of statements of vitriol and even exhortations to violence and a whole pool of rhetoric from Tea Party supporters about white slavery and anti-Obama statements that fuse into a miasma of anti-black, anti-african character attacks calling him a Kenyan Muslim and everything else.

And of COURSE the established leadership of the Tea Party as such is going to, at least when cornered on the issue in front of a camera or interview, denounce racism. Their ability to do that is really the only thing that keeps the keel of the Tea Party movement at all microscopically above the moral highground of such lovely groups as the Westboro Baptists.

And all you've got is a burden of scientific evidence excuse for how signs and such can't be taken as any indication of a group's sentiment or as an indication of a motivating factor for at least a good portion of that group-- even if those signs show up rather consistently, enough to create regular media controversy which has to be constantly damage controlled.

At this point it's like Gutmench said, you are plugging your ears and playing rhetoric games. That's all you are doing.

As for "America-hating" on the left and such, that is what the right ROUTINELY accuses the left of all the time, in EVERY political cycle anyway. Bush was 8 years of being called a terrorist-sympathizing America hater anytime you opposed ANYTHING Bush wanted, whether it was invading Iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11 or allowing him to wiretap phones and spy on e-mails with a blank check. So I have no idea what you think you are bluffing by saying "well what if we take signs from the left and draw conclusions from it." The political right in America doesn't need signs or care about signs, they say the left is a bunch of anti-American un-American pseudo Americans all the time as a constant, regular part of their rhetoric. Without proof and without substantiation of any kind, just because it's a useful divisive bit of rhetoric.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Really?

Is it really that obtuse to ask for evidence of racism before applying the label to such a wide swath of people? When did supposition replace proof as the basic standard on which we base factual discussions?

There is a name for such unprovable known-knowns. Faith.

You just blatantly ignored my reason why it is a joke you are asking for evidence. The fact is the Tea Party is not a wide swath. They are WASPs. Mostly middle aged to elderly.

Like I said, the KKK is just a southern heritage group because of the same logic you are applying.

It's called calling a spade a spade. And it doesn't mean that the goals the tea party wants are "bad" but they are motivated by hateful and disgusting reasons.

[PanzerJaeger]

So I have no idea what you think you are bluffing by saying "well what if we take signs from the left and draw conclusions from it." The political right in America doesn't need signs or care about signs, they say the left is a bunch of anti-American un-American pseudo Americans all the time as a constant, regular part of their rhetoric. Without proof and without substantiation of any kind, just because it's a useful divisive bit of rhetoric.

Seriously? That statement is literally dripping with hypocrisy.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Seriously? That statement is literally dripping with hypocrisy.

What is the Fox news equivalent for the left? If you say MSNBC, I would have to say try harder.

[PanzerJaeger]

You just blatantly ignored my reason why it is a joke you are asking for evidence. The fact is the Tea Party is not a wide swath. They are WASPs. Mostly middle aged to elderly.

Like I said, the KKK is just a southern heritage group because of the same logic you are applying.

No, there is easily provable evidence that the KKK is a racist organization. Why can't you come up with similar evidence against the Tea Party? Show me a Tea Party platform that declares America a white nation.

It's called calling a spade a spade.

Yikes. That wouldn't be my choice of words.

What is the Fox news equivalent for the left? If you say MSNBC, I would have to say try harder.

I do not understand.

Koga just got done exhorting me for challenging his signage=sentiment argument, and immediately ranted about the Right using signs to mischaracterize the Left without proof! Funny stuff.

[Koga No Goshi]

Seriously? That statement is literally dripping with hypocrisy.

Obama bashing on a line that frequently wanders WELL into purely racially-based cuts on his character is a common trait of the Tea Party. It's what lands them in headlines constantly.

Play all the rhetoric games in your own head that you please, it doesn't change that fact.

If you dislike that portrayal of the Tea Party I propose you take it up with them, rather than spending your time futilely trying to convince people on internet forums with rhetoric circles that they didn't actually hear all that offensive racist rhetoric or see those signs, they were just imagining it.

[a completely inoffensive name]

No, there is easily provable evidence that the KKK is a racist organization. Why can't you come up with similar evidence against the Tea Party? Show me a Tea Party platform that declares America a white nation.

That is just one website. I can find a bunch of other websites for liberals and tea partyers that say the same thing. Doesn't mean the group as a whole is all about that.

Yikes. That wouldn't be my choice of words.

Thank you for just proving my point.

[Koga No Goshi]

No, there is easily provable evidence that the KKK is a racist organization. Why can't you come up with similar evidence against the Tea Party? Show me a Tea Party platform that declares America a white nation.



Yikes. That wouldn't be my choice of words.



I do not understand.

Koga just got done exhorting me for challenging his signage=sentiment argument, and immediately ranted about the Right using signs to mischaracterize the Left without proof! Funny stuff.

You are trying to make us prove a claim that the Tea Party in its official public statements or in its express charter has said someting racist. We made no such claim. We said that there is most definitely racism in the ranks of the Tea Party movement. I believe that would be a straw man, but I'll be kind and say you were simply inventing or shifting goalposts.

I don't need to prove anything is in their charter nor do I even need to pull up hard stats to claim there is racism in the Tea Party movement. One sign at one rally is more than enough, but when it's a lot of signs at a lot of rallies, and a lot of rhetoric from a lot of members...

[a completely inoffensive name]

I am not racist, I just don't like this Kenyan making my decisions. Where was he born anyway? I think he was born in Africa, and we shouldn't have an african as our president. Because it is against the constitution of course. You know it is just like Rush Limbaugh says, Barack the magic negro is going to ruin this country.

I mean is the white house going to start looking like this!?!

EDIT: Removed hot linked picture. BG

EDIT: The liberals are trying to paint me as a negro hater now!!!

[PanzerJaeger]

Obama bashing on a line that frequently wanders WELL into purely racially-based cuts on his character is a common trait of the Tea Party. It's what lands them in headlines constantly.

Play all the rhetoric games in your own head that you please, it doesn't change that fact.

And yet I'm playing by your rules.

I'm still waiting for proof that the Left isn't made up of communist, anti-american, jew haters. My random pictures will not be ignored!!1

If you dislike that portrayal of the Tea Party I propose you take it up with them, rather than spending your time futilely trying to convince people on internet forums with rhetoric circles that they didn't actually hear all that offensive racist rhetoric or see those signs, they were just imagining it.

Wait, now you actually heard offensive racist rhetoric. When? Where? This is fascinating.

That is just one website. I can find a bunch of other websites for liberals and tea partyers that say the same thing. Doesn't mean the group as a whole is all about that.

You can find liberal websites that declare America white nation? POST POST POST.

Thank you for just proving my point.

I'm so confused. But it's fun.

[a completely inoffensive name]

You can find liberal websites that declare America white nation? POST POST POST.

Hold on, I am making it right now, which according to your logic will legitimize the KKK.

I'm so confused. But it's fun.

It is confusing when common sense tries to break down partisan mental walls.

[Koga No Goshi]

And yet I'm playing by your rules.

I'm still waiting for proof that the Left isn't made up of communist, anti-american, jew haters. My random pictures will not be ignored!!1

Oh those people definitely exist on the left. But (replacing communist with fascist) exactly the same thing exists on the right. But we're not talking about wide-tent groups that encompass people from every background in all 50 states and being able to dig up a couple crazies out of either of those very wide tents, we're talking about an almost invariably white middle class and up movement of largely older people who frequently have racist rhetoric and signs at their rallies. You seem to keep forgetting that. Or conveniently ignore it.

I'm sure race has nothing to do with it. The fact that they're white and Obama is black and many of them have signs calling him the Kenyan village idiot and a Muslim is just coincidence.

Wait, now you actually heard offensive racist rhetoric. When? Where? This is fascinating.



You can find liberal websites that declare America white nation? POST POST POST.



I'm so confused. But it's fun.

It's very clear that you are confused. This is something we can agree on.

[PanzerJaeger]

You are trying to make us prove a claim that the Tea Party in its official public statements or in its express charter has said someting racist. We made no such claim. We said that there is most definitely racism in the ranks of the Tea Party movement. I believe that would be a straw man, but I'll be kind and say you were simply inventing or shifting goalposts.

No, I'm not. I was responding specifically to ACIN's claim about the KKK. I don't need a charter, although that would be nice. I need something.. anything of substance.

I don't need to prove anything is in their charter nor do I even need to pull up hard stats to claim there is racism in the Tea Party movement. One sign at one rally is more than enough, but when it's a lot of signs at a lot of rallies, and a lot of rhetoric from a lot of members...

And I don't need any actual proof that the Left is comprised of a bunch of jew hating communists. I also don't need any actual proof that Muslims want to impose Sharia law on the West. I've seen the pictures.

[Ronin]

I'm still waiting for proof that the Left isn't made up of communist, anti-american, jew haters. My random pictures will not be ignored!!

now I´m curious...which one of your pretty pictures indicates that the american left is anti-american?
from what I saw I would qualify some of those people as anti-government sure.....but that isn´t the same thing.

and btw...are you going for some sort of cognitive-dissonance world record on this thread? if so, good luck man, you can do it!

[Koga No Goshi]

No, I'm not. I was responding specifically to ACIN's claim about the KKK. I don't need a charter, although that would be nice. I need something.. anything of substance.



And I don't need any actual proof that the Left is comprised of a bunch of jew hating communists. I also don't need any actual proof that Muslims want to impose Sharia law on the West. I've seen the pictures.

If I saw signs all over my town that someone wanted to impose Sharia law, I would probably be alarmed and want to make sure Sharia law wasn't signed in my town or county or state.

But even if I saw such signs in large numbers in my town or county or state, apparently that would be completely invalid grounds upon which to say "there are people here who want to impose Sharia law", according to your logic.

[PanzerJaeger]

Hold on, I am making it right now, which according to your logic will legitimize the KKK.

Not at all. It would deligitimize you.

Oh those people definitely exist on the left. But (replacing communist with fascist) exactly the same thing exists on the right. But we're not talking about wide-tent groups that encompass people from every background in all 50 states and being able to dig up a couple crazies out of either of those very wide tents, we're talking about an almost invariably white middle class and up movement of largely older people who frequently have racist rhetoric and signs at their rallies. You seem to keep forgetting that. Or conveniently ignore it.

Or.... or.... you're hopelessly misinformed.

PRINCETON, NJ -- Tea Party supporters skew right politically; but demographically, they are generally representative of the public at large. That's the finding of a USA Today/Gallup poll conducted March 26-28, in which 28% of U.S. adults call themselves supporters of the Tea Party movement.

Tea Party supporters are decidedly Republican and conservative in their leanings. Also, compared with average Americans, supporters are slightly more likely to be male and less likely to be lower-income.

In several other respects, however -- their age, educational background, employment status, and race -- Tea Partiers are quite representative of the public at large.

[PanzerJaeger]

If I saw signs all over my town that someone wanted to impose Sharia law, I would probably be alarmed and want to make sure Sharia law wasn't signed in my town or county or state.

But even if I saw such signs in large numbers in my town or county or state, apparently that would be completely invalid grounds upon which to say "there are people here who want to impose Sharia law", according to your logic.

Large numbers?

You posted six.

There have been hundreds of thousands of Tea Partiers in single events alone.

[Koga No Goshi]

Not at all. It would deligitimize you.



Or.... or.... you're hopelessly misinformed.

PRINCETON, NJ -- Tea Party supporters skew right politically; but demographically, they are generally representative of the public at large. That's the finding of a USA Today/Gallup poll conducted March 26-28, in which 28% of U.S. adults call themselves supporters of the Tea Party movement.

Tea Party supporters are decidedly Republican and conservative in their leanings. Also, compared with average Americans, supporters are slightly more likely to be male and less likely to be lower-income.

In several other respects, however -- their age, educational background, employment status, and race -- Tea Partiers are quite representative of the public at large.

LOL the statistics didn't disprove that the Tea Party are largely well off whites. It proved it.

[PanzerJaeger]

LOL the statistics didn't disprove that the Tea Party are largely well off whites. It proved it.

The horror! The Tea Party has roughly the same racial breakdown of the nation. How skewed towards minorities must a group's racial makeup be before it can be considered non-racist?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Not at all. It would deligitimize you.

No, now there is a website that is called liberals.org and it talks about how all of us liberals defend how we need to raise taxes and our right ot medicare and taxes, except for anyone that is not white, because it was whites that founded this country and built the social programs in the first place and it is black, hispanics and asians that are draining it.

So now, there are people from all political backgrounds that are talking about white america. So why are you trying to paint the KKK as something completely defined by the rhetoric that is found in all groups? because there is a KK website that says such things? Well now there are website from the left as well that say the same thing. So really you need to give me evidence that every single one of these KKK members hate blacks otherwise you are misinformed about their true character. Give evidence that all of them hate blacks, show me the tapes of all of them admitting it. Otherwise your defense of the KKK being especially racist in anyway is just faith.

[Koga No Goshi]

Large numbers?

You posted six.

There have been hundreds of thousands of Tea Partiers in single events alone.

I don't have the time to sift through hundreds or thousands of youtubes, google images of events and post them all here. And it's pretty obvious that any number of links provided to Tea Party people saying inflammatory things will just be dismissed by you anyway, so why would I waste my time?

[PanzerJaeger]

No, now there is a website that is called liberals.org

No, there isn't. I'll admit it, I copy/pasted. Nonexistent/fake websites don't count. And thus, the fallacy of your KKK comparison stands. :(

[a completely inoffensive name]

No, there isn't. I'll admit it, I copy/pasted. Nonexistent/fake websites don't count. And thus, the fallacy of your KKK comparison stands. :(

GoDaddy is being slow in uploading it.

But seriously, you have now admitted that my KKK comparison is apt if I had actually made the website. So you are now admitting that your logic is flawed because it is absurd to come to the logical conclusion that the KKK isn't a racist organization.

[Ronin]

I´m gonna take this as a lesson and walk away now....

[PanzerJaeger]

I don't have the time to sift through hundreds or thousands of youtubes, google images of events and post them all here. And it's pretty obvious that any number of links provided to Tea Party people saying inflammatory things will just be dismissed by you anyway, so why would I waste my time?

Don't bother. I'm far more interested in advancing the notion that the the Left in America is comprised of a bunch of communist, anti-american, jew hating scumbags based on some random pictures I found on the internet.

I think I'm beginning to like this lowered burden of proof. I can't wait to use this one next time muslims are discussed!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Koga No Goshi]

http://www.teapartynationalism.com/t...ilitia-impulse

This was a study about the Tea Party's ties to various nationalistic groups in the U.S.

It's all pretty relevant, including various Tea Party figures inviting anti-semitic and other controversial figures onto radio discussions and to events, but in particular I liked:

"In preparation for Tea Party protests held on July 4, 2009, national socialists and other white supremacists created a discussion thread on Stormfront.org, the largest and most widely accessed of the many white nationalist websites.[216] While highlighting the distinction between themselves and the majority of Tea Partiers who were not self-conscious about their own racism, one person argued, “We need a relevant transitional envelop-pushing flyer for the masses. Take these Tea Party Americans by the hand and help them go from crawling to standing independently and then walking towards racialism.”[217]"

Know what Panzer? If your political party has supporters on Stormfront.org, you're pretty much up a creek defending that the Tea Party doesn't have an overtly racist following. The article also mentions how the discussion preparing for the Tea Party event over at Stormfront expressly included a discussion amongst themselves of leaving the racist symbology at home when they went to the event for PR purposes, lol.

But yeah you know, there's crazies in every group. I'm sure over at Stormfront they have big discussion threads about attending Democratic rallies in support of Democratic candidates. Right?



Also since it didn't get past the cranium last time, I already said the right routinely accuses the left of being anti-American at all times, just as a normal, usual part of their rhetoric. So again, and for the third time actually, I fail to see what point you believe you are making. You're saying you can "leap to some conclusion" now that is routinely used in utterly normal every-cycle part of right wing rhetoric about the left. Somehow I have a hard time picturing that during the 8 years of Bush you were running around playing burden of proof games when all the right-wingers were calling us America haters because we opposed the Iraq War or the Patriot Act.

[PanzerJaeger]

GoDaddy is being slow in uploading it.

But seriously, you have now admitted that my KKK comparison is apt if I had actually made the website. So you are now admitting that your logic is flawed because it is absurd to come to the logical conclusion that the KKK isn't a racist organization.

No, I didn't - because it would have been fake.

Just to be clear as it is late and I'm generally stupid, are you arguing that under my logic the KKK can be denied to be racist because I asked for a higher burden of proof than six random pictures that the Tea Party is racist? Is that the road we're going down?

[Koga No Goshi]

No, I didn't - because it would have been fake.

Just to be clear as it is late and I'm generally stupid, are you arguing that under my logic the KKK can be denied to be racist because I asked for a higher burden of proof than six random pictures that the Tea Party is racist? Is that the road we're going down?

There are countless examples of racist rhetoric from the Tea Party but you obtusely reject that this is part of the movement.

You also completely sidestepped my question about if the Tea Party is for fiscal responsibility first and foremost then why is it a response to Obama and was not a reaction put together in response to Bush?