So how do *you* learn a language?

[frogbeastegg]

The org's full of multi-linguists. Those of you speaking English as a secondary language are damned good at it, and have always had my respect. So how do you do it?

I want to improve my French. There's a series of books (Les Rois Maudits) which I want to read, and they haven't had a proper English translation. I have copies of the French omnibus editions and a massive French dictionary; with a bit more ability I should be able to begin stumbling my way through them.

My ability is all over the place. I do far better with French that is spoken/written for me than when I need to return it. I did 4 years of pathetic tuition at school and was quite good at it, and reached a point where I could read a fairly simple novel or news report and was able to manage very well when I spent a week in Paris. 12 years later and here I am, some of the ability retained, some lost, and some surprisingly improved. To break it down into the four categories they graded me on in my school days:

Speaking. I can manage some. My main problems are the accent, and getting the words I want. I can recognise and comprehend a reasonably large variety of words, I just can't find the word when I want to use it myself. The accent is purposefully designed () to give English speakers with a sharp, precise accent like mine trouble. Furthermore, over the years I've lost the feel for how it is meant to sound.

Writing. I can't. At all. The spelling combined with my trouble finding the words ...

Reading. I'm still quite good. Except when I'm entirely stuck. It seems like either I know enough to put together an approximate translation, or I can't understand a single word. For example, I can understand the entire introduction of the first book in Les Rois Maudits, barring a few words which I can guess at. The entire next page, nope.

Listening. About the same as reading, provided the speaker doesn't talk too quickly.

My options are limited. I don't want to learn tourist level French so the cheaper DIY language kits are useless. Most classes in my area are aimed at complete beginners and are too simplistic, the rest are formal courses of study for qualifications. I can't afford to buy one of those non-tourist level DIY language kits, like the Rosetta Stone series. I thought I might take advantage of the enforced multi-lingual games and DVDs we get in the UK, and combine French audio with English subtitles to see what I can absorb. Heh. Turns out that in many cases the English version is delayed for the European translations, which are then not included on our discs.

Any suggestions?

[Arjos]

Remember some friends, who basically couldn't get a word, becoming quite fluent after a couple of months living in the US...

Simplistic ones are very very boring, but in the end they get the job done, I couldn't stand my english lessons as they were very simple, but I must say they worked...
Listening for me was by far the best way, since I was little my dad got english cartoon network from the satellite and that was it ^^

About the subtitles, avoid the english ones and keep the french ones, it's better to have the brain getting the pronunciation and the proper writing...
Even if you don't get what they are saying it should help improve your reading and writing, maybe even something like the french news with many accents could be the closest to "living" in France...

[Drunk Clown]

English television and games. That's how I learned English.
When I was twelve, my English was better than most of my classmates who are now 17.


I would recommend English subtitles while watching French Channels/movies etc. Doing so you link the French with the English words.

You could also start watching French news. Their pronunciation is top notch and easy to follow. If you encounter difficult words of which you do not know the meaning, write them down and look them up afterwards.
I'm doing the same thing with German.

[LeftEyeNine]

At a comparably (to those all over Turkey) young age of 10, I had attained a school known for its intense language education and I owe the basis of English of which, as well as with any language, getting a grip of the grammar was the most crucial part to the education I could acquire in that school.

But when I'm asked about acquiantances or relatives about what to do about improving their children's English skills, I generally reply that a language can not be learned without a teacher (so as to make them abandon any scam kits that claim to teach you some alien language all by yourself at home) and that I had improved my English through playing computer games, watching movies, writing poems (I hid those to the dark corners of my conscious) etc.

Learning a language to me is being able to live by it -not using a couple of phrases or barely being able to understand what you are told partially- hence my thought of it being no different to being a learner of music.

If you don't like it and feel obliged to, you'll never overcome a certain limit. As long as you're in love with a language, you'll always find a way to interact with "her" -just like how you'd behave were it somebody you like.

Bottomline: Being exposed to the language you're eager to learn will find its way into your linguistic capacity.

[Major Robert Dump]

Google translate

[Andres]

If you want to learn a language, you need to use it. Preferably daily. The best would be to simply go to France for a few months and speak nothing else but French.

Alternatively, if you have a friend whose native tongue is French, then talk to him/her every day or write him/her e-mails on a daily basis.

Another way is to join a few forums in the language of your choice that are related to things that really interest you. Interact with the people there. Force yourself to post regularly and read the replies you get. I learned the basics of French at school, but at leaving school, I wasn't good at speaking it.

I learned that during my job, where about half of the clients speaks only French. You'd be amazed how you can go from basics -> fluently speaking in just a few months.

Reading books is a good way to improve on your knowledge, but if you know only the basics, then I wouldn't recommend reading books. Reading is also pretty passive, you need to use the language yourself if you want to make progress fast.

It takes a certain degree of self-confidence. You need not to be afraid of making a lot of mistakes or even to be confronted with people who don't have a clue what you're saying; allthough most people are very forgiving and helpful if they know you're not a native speaker and will certainly appreciate your efforts, even if they are very clumsy in the beginning.

[Kralizec]

My English skills are what they are today because of exposure. I have rarely needed to speak English to anyone, but the bulk of all the TV programs, movies and music that I've been exposed to during my life are in English.

In contrast, my German is rather lackluster. While I can generally read German text without too much trouble (though at a slower pace than Dutch or English) I wouldn't be able to write a letter without butchering their language; and I can only manage basic conversations. Since a month or so I've started to read German texts, particulary Der Spiegel. Reading contemporary news is a great way to improve your vocabulary; it's easier than books because you usually already have some knowledge about what you're going to read.

When I was writing my masters' paper for my university study I had to read a number of French sources, and it was terrible (English and German sources as well, but those weren't as much trouble). Last year I tried to brush up on my French because that's where I was heading for a vacation, but almost nothing came from it...

Bonjour. Je te voudrais introduire. Je m'appele Kralizec...

[Fragony]

There are these special holidays, part party part school. Don't feel bad about being bad at writing it, French is not easy to learn, the grammar is a nightmare. Being good at English also ain't all that easy by the way, I can read and speak it just fine, but if I consciously try to avoid making any mistakes when writing it I doubt every sentence I write.

edit, your brain is well equiped to learn different language, kids from multilingual parents can distinguish different languages before they can speak any themselves. They just know

[Drunk Clown]

There are these special holidays, part party part school. Don't feel bad about being bad at writing it, French is not easy to learn, the grammar is a nightmare. Being good at English also ain't all that easy by the way, I can read and speak it just fine, but if I consciously try to avoid making any mistakes when writing it I doubt every sentence I write.

Same goes for me, especially with punctuation. Dutch use a lot more ";" and ",".

[frogbeastegg]

Some good ideas here

I shall have to improve a lot before I can attempt any of the ones involving writing. I am incapable of writing in the language at all. I can add the French Total War forum on .com to my internet reading list until I can find some other sites.

After a bit of digging I found a recommendations for RFI's radio news channel 'Le journal en français facile' or 'the news in easy French'. Sounds very handy. Getting past the various French version error messages in order to get it to work with WMP12 was educational. I wonder if "cretins American" means what it sounds like? Considering that they were talking about Fox News, possibly it does.

When it comes to languages, I feel that being English is a handicap. Unless we come from a mixed race/culture background, the only other language we are exposed to is American English. When we are supposed to be learning other languages at school it is (or was in my day) done with the tacit understanding that whichever country we go to, many of the locals will speak English. No real effort is put in to impart an understanding. My French lessons consisted of a whole 2 hours per week for 4 years. We only reached important concepts like past and present tenses in the final year.

Bonjour. Je te voudrais introduire. Je m'appele Kralizec...

That's a good example. Seeing it written here I understand precisely what that means, as easily as I understand it in English. Having seen it, I could say it, no doubt horrifically mangling the pronunciation in the process. If you had asked me to say that exact same 'idea' without the written version present I couldn't manage anything more than the most basic form; the middle section would be missing. Ask me to write it without this example to copy from and no chance! I need to copy it letter by letter.

[Fragony]

Do I really got to point out that Krazelic did it all wrong

[Arjos]

Is it like:

Good day, I'd like to introduce you (XD), my name is Kralizec? :D

[Fragony]

Is it like:

Good day, I'd like to introduce you (XD), my name is Kralizec? :D

That but I would just give an apple

'When I was writing my masters' paper for my university study'

His master' (his) paper.

[Peasant Phill]

On peut commencer à parler en français dans ce fil. Et vous, dame grenouille, vous pouvez répondre aussi en frainçais.

[Kralizec]

Is it like:

Good day, I'd like to introduce you (XD), my name is Kralizec? :D

That but I would just give an apple

'When I was writing my masters' paper for my university study'

His master' (his) paper.

Pfff. Whatever

Nobody's commented on my use of "introduire" yet...

[Arjos]

French is used to hook up anyway, grammar doesn't matter :D

[Viking]

Personally, I believe that most of my English abilities do not come from school, I didn't do much of my English home work...yet I often got top grades (unfortunately, the lenght of a text also weighed a lot, not just the command of the language..).

I think that frequently reading online newspapers in French; e.g. Le Monde with a comprehensive dictionary at your disposal (preferably French-French) would help a lot.

If you play any games regularly, try switching the preferred language to French. I guess that could make you learn many words and formulations in "one sweep", since you will have already have designated different meanings to the various buttons and functions. Same goes for other programs, such as web browsers or even operating systems (though I'll take no blame if turns out to be hard to get it back into English ), depending on how far one is willing to go.

Now, I haven't tried learning a new language for quite some time; so what I wrote above comes from my personal understanding of how I have aquired my English skills. My German is in pretty poor shape, and that is because I never got to work enough with it. English typically meant going straight to the source for more cases than any other language, so I've have a great personal interest in understanding the language well, so I have sort of just been coping with the challenges of going straight to the source - and this leads to me learning a lot of English in the process.

[frogbeastegg]

On peut commencer à parler en français dans ce fil. Et vous, dame grenouille, vous pouvez répondre aussi en frainçais.

Let's see. Minus any kind of aid, I get: In a bit(?) [I?] will start to speak in French [something]. And you, lady frog, will reply also in French.

Oui? Non?

EDIT: Someone sneaked in while I was attempting my translation!

Thanks for the link to Le Monde, Viking. I hadn't thought to see if they were also online. Of course they are - everyone is.

I think I may have figured out how to switch my DS to French mode. That should then put all of my games into French as well. Got to test it to see. Other games remain difficult; a lot of them don't seem to have language options.

[Drunk Clown]

More like: We can start speaking French in this thread.

[Peasant Phill]

Let's see. Minus any kind of aid, I get: In a bit(?) [I?] will start to speak in French [something]. And you, lady frog, will reply also in French.

Oui? Non?

Close

Like Drunk Clown says: We can start speaking French in this thread and you, lady Frog, can reply in French also.

[EXPLENATION]
ON can mean we or they. Mostly used when you have no specific group in mind
PEUR from the verb pouvoir, meaning can
FIL literally means thread what fabric is made of. I don't know if there is a beter term relevant to an internet thread.

In a bit translates to dans un instant, dans un moment, ...
[/EXPLENATION]

I'm sure Louis will point out a huge gramatical mistake somewhere.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Exercise. Reading and listening come with knowledge of the vocab, and knowledge of the vocab comes from repetition. Repetition in turn leads you to understand the finer distinctions of idiom and grammar, which in turn lead you to master idiomatic expressions more readily. Accent, you're English so we must pity you: the English have a very poor system of sounds which is effectively an impairment in your ability to break up & assemble the words, sounds and muscular movements required to speak and understand pretty much all continental European languages. So you don't get our head start, which means you'll have to apply yourself. Dating someone French or well educated Belgian, might be an answer? Living in France? Watching Doctor Who in French? (Seriously, that's great fun. Just like how Bond movies improve tenfold by being broadcast on the German networks!)

[Tellos Athenaios]

ON can mean we or they.

As I understood it, “on” refers to some indistinct collective (i.e. old fashioned use of the word “man”). In Dutch this may be translated literally into “they” (ze), but in English such use would be more commonly translated into a passive. The use of “on” meaning “we”, is of course the common, informal, usage of the word.

[Hooahguy]

You have to immerse yourself in the language. Be around people who speak it constantly. There is no other way.

[Ituralde]

Just for the immediate benefit I would recommend, continuing to read the books you have there.
Even, if you don't understand a word for one, two, even three pages, with the basic French skills you have, you should be able to pick up more and more as you go along.
That's how I did it with English in the beginning. I only had my limited school knowledge at age 13, then I started reading the Wheel of Time series in English. I didn't get anyhting from the first ten pages, at least semantically, but I steadily improved. Writing down the words you don't understand and looking them up helps too.

The downside is, that I'm sometimes not able to translate English words into German. I know how and when to use them, but their true meaning escapes me.
As a disclaimer I have to add that after those reading lessons I went for one year to the US and after that I have been reading English books and watching English shows/TV/movies extensively. Not mentioning this forum here. So yeah, immerse yourself in French!

[Peasant Phill]

... Dating someone French or well educated Belgian, might be an answer? ...

Funny you should mention that because ...

Just kidding of course.

[Moros]

Oui, Phill n' a plus une femme. Et son français est très bon. Il est très capable dans la cuisine aussi, n'est ce pas? Ensuite, il est intelligent et gentil. Et la Belgique, c'est ne pas si loin, en outre il habite a l'ouest. C'est parfait! Seulement, il n'ose pas le proposer.

[frogbeastegg]

Thanks for the further suggestions.

I shall attempt to listen to at least an hour of French radio per day, and then either read a chapter of a book, half an hour reading articles on the internet, or spend half an hour of a game or DVD with French text and/or audio. More if I can manage it. I have the most comprehensive of Oxford's English/French dictionaries so there should be few words beyond my grasp provided I can spell them.

I approached my local library about French language books. They have a small collection. If I can't find anything suitable they said they would consider ordering a selection of titles at my request. Woohoo for increased local library funding! I have asked them if they can get French editions of some of the Asterix books. Those comics are the single best thing to come out of France and it will be nice to tackle them in the original form. I already know some of the changes, like Dogmatix = Idefix.

Close

Like Drunk Clown says: We can start speaking French in this thread and you, lady Frog, can reply in French also.

[EXPLENATION]
ON can mean we or they. Mostly used when you have no specific group in mind
PEUR from the verb pouvoir, meaning can
FIL literally means thread what fabric is made of. I don't know if there is a beter term relevant to an internet thread.

In a bit translates to dans un instant, dans un moment, ...
[/EXPLENATION]

I'm sure Louis will point out a huge gramatical mistake somewhere.

I see. Thanks for the breakdown.

The only connection which was coming to mind for fil was Latin, filius ('son'). Obviously incorrect, so I let that one stand as a mystery.

I haven't been introduced to any form of 'we' which isn't 'nous'. Er, I think that's spelled correctly? Time spent with some verb and word tables might be productive for filling these basic gaps in my knowledge.

The 'a bit'/peur I worked out incorrectly based on (excuse horrific spelling) j'ai parle un peut d'Francais aka I speak a bit of French. I don't know how the peut part of that is really spelt, that's my guess based on the sound. It sounds like a very emphasised phonetic pronunciation in English of the letter P.

[frogbeastegg]

Oui, Phill n' a plus une femme. Et son français est très bon. Il est très capable dans la cuisine aussi, n'est ce pas? Ensuite, il est intelligent et gentil. Et la Belgique, c'est ne pas si loin, en outre il habite a l'ouest. C'est parfait! Seulement, il n'ose pas le proposer.

Let's see, again without any kind of aid ... Yes, Phill [something] a woman. And your French is very good. You are a very good cook as well? Additionally, you are intelligent and gentle. And the Belgian is not [something], and outer [something] [live/house?]. It's perfect! [Something] the proposal.

How did I do?

I could use a dictionary to get the rest but for now I want to see how far I can manage on my own, get a better feel for how my understanding works.

[Drunk Clown]

j'ai parle un peut d'Francais aka I speak a bit of French. I don't know how the peut part of that is really spelt, that's my guess based on the sound. It sounds like a very emphasised phonetic pronunciation in English of the letter P.

Don't think it's J'ai. I may be wrong but how I remember (being 2-3 years ago I had french class) it's: Je parle un peu (no t) Francais. Don't know about the "de" before francais but I believe it's not d' since the next word starts with an "f".

[Fragony]

Let's see, again without any kind of aid ... Yes, Phill [something] a woman. And your French is very good. You are a very good cook as well? Additionally, you are intelligent and gentle. And the Belgian is not [something], and outer [something] [live/house?]. It's perfect! [Something] the proposal.

How did I do?

I could use a dictionary to get the rest but for now I want to see how far I can manage on my own, get a better feel for how my understanding works.

You do realise that he's trying to hook you up with Peasant Phil, not that he shouldn't of course