Civil War in Libya

[Adrian II]

If it's garrisoning the place then no thanks

Good God, no. I totally agree. I meant that other forms of intervention or assistance may be necessary in our interest as well as Libya's.

AII

[HoreTore]

Every freedom movement has a chance of turning into despotism.

Ho Chi Minh started his career by reading the US declaration of independence as the foundation of his beliefs. Mao lived among his followers in the early years in a truly classless and free society, never asking for any special treatment or honour.

Both of those movements changed dramatically in a different way, and nobody could've predicted it at the time.

But to say that we should never support opposition groups because they can turn into something as bad as the current regime is wrong. It was right to support the democratic opposition in the USSR even though we now have Putin and Belarus, because we also have a free and working Poland and the Czech republic. We havd a chance of failure every time a human rights activist is supported, true, but also have a chance of success.

And it is my firm belief that we should support every one of them, at any time and any place.


A dictator is never good.

[Hax]

Do we really need to go there? A question like this could only be asked by someone who enjoys full democracy and doesn't even understand or value it.

How so? There are no implications to my question, I was just wondering. I am sick of being regarded as someone who does not value western society just because I ask these questions. But instead, I "don't understand or value democracy". Right, you know what I think is best about the Rechtsstaat? It's that I can criticise elements of it without having to fear persecution.

They would chose to be an enemy ideologically. But AdrianII is going to laugh very at me for saying that so I'm of

I don't know. As I have pointed out in the past, there are Islamist politicians that don't automatically regard the west as evil imperialist dogs that deserve to be hanged. Rashid Ghannushi of the Tunisian opposition or, more recently, Esfandiar Rahim Mashaei in Iran. Are they truly enemies? Or are they other people entitled to their opinion when it comes to the governance of a state.

We may very well not agree with them, and I certainly don't, but how can we universally apply our ideas of human rights when they are, essentially, European in nature. I think what we learned from Iraq and Afghanistan is that we can't force a democracy on a people. Maybe Libya will improve.

In any case, the rise of Islamic states has little to do with positive political consent and far more to do with a lack of opposition.

As a point of contrast, do you think the majority wanted a theocratic autocracy in England in the 1650's? Or was it just that the religious fundamentalists had all the power?

I don't know nearly enough about English history to form an educated opinion on that matter. However, taking a look at the history of Islamic states, and in particular Iran. What you seem to forget is the influence of the Iranian left-wing that helped topple the regime of the Shah. It was only after the Revolution that Khomeini started to dispose of his political enemies, secular left-wingers as well sympathisers of the Shah as well as what he regarded as hostile intellectuals.

So the lack of a formidable opposition was not so much present from the start as much as a consequence of the Revolution. I don't think there's any way we can predict what would happen in Libya.

[Adrian II]

How so? There are no implications to my question, I was just wondering.

Then why do you ask if an islamic state can be democratic? I'm sure that muslims can be democrats, there are enough examples to convince any skeptic. But an islamic state is something else.

AII

[Strike For The South]

Then why do you ask if an islamic state can be democratic? I'm sure that muslims can be democrats, there are enough examples to convince any skeptic. But an islamic state is something else.

AII

Indeed. I'm all for the Lybian people decidingi what they want but I feel like my fellow westerners should realize it is sometimes better dealing with 1 all powerful tyrant than 000s of semi powerdul ones

[Fragony]

Then why do you ask if an islamic state can be democratic? I'm sure that muslims can be democrats, there are enough examples to convince any skeptic. But an islamic state is something else.

AII

yes it is #agrees

[ICantSpellDawg]

Indeed. I'm all for the Lybian people decidingi what they want but I feel like my fellow westerners should realize it is sometimes better dealing with 1 all powerful tyrant than 000s of semi powerdul ones

Disagree. We are entering a reality where we will not be able to do things like this. The Chinese autocratic menace is entering onto the global military/economic stage. They have a national interest in eliminating global dissenters everywhere and will soon have the means to back that up - we are seeing examples of this now; muzzling speech outside of their borders, support of dictatorships for no visible reason other than to support dictatorships. They will be to autocracy what we are to democracy and we need to create allies now, while we can. We can do this by weakening China's allies all over the autocratic world - strengthening the people over their governments. This is our war that we are fighting right now along side all free or freedom-seeking people.Tora Tora Tora.

[rory_20_uk]

Disagree. We are entering a reality where we will not be able to do things like this. The Chinese autocratic menace is entering onto the global military/economic stage. They have a national interest in eliminating global dissenters everywhere and will soon have the means to back that up - we are seeing examples of this now; muzzling speech outside of their borders, support of dictatorships for no visible reason other than to support dictatorships. They will be to autocracy what we are to democracy and we need to create allies now, while we can. We can do this by weakening China's allies all over the autocratic world - strengthening the people over their governments. This is our war that we are fighting right now along side all free or freedom-seeking people.Tora Tora Tora.

"Fighting" China on this one is not best approached using guns and bullets, but by empowering the people of all these countries. Ensuring that services as Twitter, Facebook, Google+ et al is the way forward. They may be trying to muzzle speech, but more and more they are failing to do so and there are more persons who are trying to circumvent the rules to communicate.

The same thing happened with the USSR - the cost of propping up other countries eventually destroyed them. That China is so jittery about any countries whose people want freedom shows how worried they are about loosing control of their own. No one is backing them, there are no puppet masters and hence playing the nationalist card isn't going to help.

[Vladimir]

Has this been posted? Dead bodies rotting in the sun.

[Adrian II]

We can do this by weakening China's allies all over the autocratic world - strengthening the people over their governments. Tora Tora Tora.

Spoken like a man. If we don't counter this trend, democracy may come to be regarded as a liability before we know it. I'm sick and tired already of the so-called superiority of authoritarian capitalism being vaunted by impotent politicians and short-sighted economists.

However there is one force working to our advantage: China itself. Remember: the Chinese middle class is always rising, rising, rising.

AII

[Banquo's Ghost]

Has this been posted? Dead bodies rotting in the sun.

We've had a couple of instances of this kind of post. This is a PG-13 rated site and pictures of death and extreme violence don't really have a place here. It's pretty obvious that atrocities and death has occurred in Libya and anyone who wants to view such material has only to google it for themselves.

Thank you kindly.

[Vladimir]

That's odd. It was Reuters and kinda backs up some arguments here.

[Banquo's Ghost]

That's odd. It was Reuters and kinda backs up some arguments here.

The source is immaterial. Many members on this forum can appreciate that there are bad things happening without graphic footage of dead bodies. In addition, the forum rules ask people not to post such material. Plenty of other sites where one can indulge in ghoulishness, if that's the fancy.

[Adrian II]

It wasn't just Reuters, the story has been covered by Al Jazeera, BBC, Sky and several major newspapers. The pictures are everywhere.

AII

[Viking]

Not properly backed up? Racism in Libya is very well documented. It amazes me that the most ardent proponents of this conflict often know the least about the intricacies of Libyan society.

There's a lot of evidence of xenophobia and targeting of African migrant workers, about that there is no doubt. However, to say that these occurences are created by racist ideas in the general populace, that is to take one step further.

They were called 'slaves'? But who were these people? In the articles, they are referred to as migrant workers; not native inhabitants of Libya. Perhaps the term 'slave' could even applied non-derogatory - that they were poorly paid etc. Unlike the Egyptian workers, it looks like those from sub-Sahara had to a great extent entered the country illegaly, another thing that could cause hostility towards them. They probably also are generally poor and have little education. To pin their treatment exclusively on racial ideas strikes me as premature (but of course, newspapers would love to use the word 'racism' in their headlines).

Another side of it, is the extent of this behaviour. How many supported the treatment of these people? It is usually the most extreme people that take to streets and commit their deeds. Essentially, it's a bit absurd to assume that a massive group of people would have to have a precise agreement on this and that idea.

[HoreTore]

Disagree. We are entering a reality where we will not be able to do things like this. The Chinese autocratic menace is entering onto the global military/economic stage. They have a national interest in eliminating global dissenters everywhere and will soon have the means to back that up - we are seeing examples of this now; muzzling speech outside of their borders, support of dictatorships for no visible reason other than to support dictatorships. They will be to autocracy what we are to democracy and we need to create allies now, while we can. We can do this by weakening China's allies all over the autocratic world - strengthening the people over their governments. This is our war that we are fighting right now along side all free or freedom-seeking people.Tora Tora Tora.

I think I'd like an example of a dictatorship China has given support without there being an economic interest from China.

Because I sure as hell can't think of any.

[Adrian II]

They were called 'slaves'? But who were these people?

Blacks are habitually referred to as 'slaves' (abeed) in Arab countries. Among Libya's black inhabitants are native Libyans descending from actual slaves or from black tribes in the South, migrant workers from all over Africa, and African mercenaries who were drafted into Gaddafi's regular and irregular forces since the 1980's. There are also groups of African guerilla's who used to be trained in Gaddafi's training camps.

AII

[Viking]

Blacks are habitually referred to as 'slaves' (abeed) in Arab countries. Among Libya's black inhabitants are native Libyans descending from actual slaves or from black tribes in the South, migrant workers from all over Africa, and African mercenaries who were drafted into Gaddafi's regular and irregular forces since the 1980's. There are also groups of African guerilla's who used to be trained in Gaddafi's training camps.

AII

Each of the Arab countries have their own history, both before and after decolonisation, and so the usage of a word could have different meanings in different countries. Importantly, a word can become synonymous with certain groups, such as in your WP article:

It is commonly used by the Northern Sudanese to refer to Southern Sudanese

which as time passes could mean that 'abeed' would eventually be a derogatory word that means 'South Sudanese', where few people would now associate it with 'slave' (meanings of words may change fast). So again, more research is and/or details are needed.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I don't know nearly enough about English history to form an educated opinion on that matter. However, taking a look at the history of Islamic states, and in particular Iran. What you seem to forget is the influence of the Iranian left-wing that helped topple the regime of the Shah. It was only after the Revolution that Khomeini started to dispose of his political enemies, secular left-wingers as well sympathisers of the Shah as well as what he regarded as hostile intellectuals.

So the lack of a formidable opposition was not so much present from the start as much as a consequence of the Revolution. I don't think there's any way we can predict what would happen in Libya.

Cromwell also eliminated his opposition, including Parliament.

He had the powerful backers, so did Khomeini.

A theocratic state is bad. An Islamic state is theocratic.

[Centurion1]

I think I'd like an example of a dictatorship China has given support without there being an economic interest from China.

Because I sure as hell can't think of any.

What is really the economic advantage of North Korea?

[econ21]

What is really the economic advantage of North Korea?

That's a good question. But I don't think China sees North Korea as an ideological soulmate - for that to be true, North Korea would have to be following a more reformist path like the Chinese themselves. I don't even think the fall of North Korea to the South would worry China on an ideological front - South Korea seems to have so much more in common with China - in terms of economy, culture etc - than North Korea does.

I suspect the Chinese government see North Korea as an unexploded bomb, best left propped up, stable and undisturbed. The worst case scenario is that North Korea tries to take the South down with it, starting a major war and destabilising the world economy. Even if North Korea were to go out with a whimper rather than a bang, I can still see the risk of refugees and it becoming more of a burden to it's neighbour than it is now. I think that's why China has not prodded North Korea to follow it's path since 1978.

[Major Robert Dump]

Haha they have found the daughter Reagan killed in 1985. She is a doctor.

[Louis VI the Fat]

It wasn't just Reuters, the story has been covered by Al Jazeera, BBC, Sky and several major newspapers. The pictures are everywhere.

AII

And it isn't just 'Louis' and Strike's Yacatun Holiday Picture Book' that covers lots of fetishes, but also IAmAboutTo.com, LonghornDorsetSheep.nz and AllBlacks.Co.ck. The smutty p0rn pictures are everywhere.

Just not here.



Louis - returns to that Cook Islands Kiwi Rugger fan site.

[HoreTore]

LonghornDorsetSheep.nz doesn't exist.



You tease.

[HoreTore]

What is really the economic advantage of North Korea?

http://www.cfr.org/china/china-north...ionship/p11097

Got anyone else?

[Centurion1]

http://www.cfr.org/china/china-north...ionship/p11097

Got anyone else?

Yeah N. Korea

Do you even read your articles? The experts in your article suggest a 1.25 billion dollars in their trade deficit is simply ignored by China since N. Korea essentially has no borrowing power. That's money the could have easily made elsewhere.

[HoreTore]

Yeah N. Korea

Do you even read your articles? The experts in your article suggest a 1.25 billion dollars in their trade deficit is simply ignored by China since N. Korea essentially has no borrowing power. That's money the could have easily made elsewhere.

I do believe you missed it completely.

[Tellos Athenaios]

China considers $1.25bn good value if it buys them a somewhat functional border guard to keep the North Koreans from getting in. (Well more of them than those who can manage it currently.) Not unlike the funds pumped into Mexico by the USA in the vain hope it'll keep at least some Mexicans put.

[Papewaio]

Then why do you ask if an islamic state can be democratic? I'm sure that muslims can be democrats, there are enough examples to convince any skeptic. But an islamic state is something else.

AII

Depends if we mean theocracy or Islamic laws/majority. As long as we don't equate an Islamic state to be automatically a theocracy then we have a few positive examples.

I can think of three large democratic states who have a lot of Muslims, some of them heavy in Islamic laws yet still democracies... All three in the long term trends are doing well... Not as well as their more secular democratic neighbors but better then the local despots of any faith i.e. Compare Malaysia vs Burma

[Adrian II]

I can think of three large democratic states who have a lot of Muslims, some of them heavy in Islamic laws yet still democracies...

You mean there are democracies out there that are democracies? I'm not surprised.

But can you name one islamic state that is a democracy?

AII