The Thing Mafia [Concluded]

[Askthepizzaguy]

Thanks Atpg, it was very fun being you, and it was definitely something I wanted to do.

I suspected as much. If anyone could get away with being Askthepizzaguy for a day, I think they'd take it just to try on my big floppy clown shoes.

I wanted to put some icing on the cake, in that me pretending to be you as closely as possible would make it a tiny bit easier for you to mimic me, because if you did anything obviously Reenk-y, it could be interpreted as just a good impression of you I was doing.

And finally, being able to act like Reenk Roink after declaring that Reenk Roink was the Thing, means you were literally able to be yourself, after outing yourself as scum, right underneath everyone's nose, the round after I said you'd be able to talk to GH without him knowing it was you.

I lolled HARD at that.

It was hard though, I was initally worried about what you called GH, but later just did it based on my impressions of you. It wasn't the best impression, but it was a start. Maybe I can do it again. Didn't even know I had once said Reentution. I have seen you use the wink smileys a couple of times though.

Tip: Watch out for word choice. My vocabulary is not as precise or sophisticated as yours, as I mention in the QT, and gave examples. You used words I would never use, like "abstentions". But the townies weren't actually looking for you that round it seemed, they were setting up for the endgame. Their loss, I suppose. Careful reading of Rocco would have outed you.


I think the dead players who have been taken over by The Thing should do everything in their power not to make things harder for the Thing player. My gameroom post slip made me feel like poo because this role was fun and in any way ruining it for you would have been as horrible for me as my accidental outing of my own partner in Council of Villains II as a cultist who just plain forgot who his teammates were.

Some things aren't cool in mafia games, and nearly losing the game for you by being careless wouldn't have been fun for me.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Also, I wouldn't miss a detail like you once saying Reentuition. I had to be accurate on that, but I guess you spelled it two different ways at times.

[TinCow]

I think the dead players should have a collective ability. Maybe it doesn't even have to be protown, they can vote which side they want to help and then do it. It would be a good way to have the Thing cater to his audience.

One option might simply be to give the people confined to the Dead Thread a reason to help the Thing. Perhaps all Dead Thread players are allowed to choose whether they want to back town or mafia. It is a one-off, irreversible choice that must be made before the end of the next game phase after they die. Players who back town will win with the town as per usual. Players who back mafia will... what? It seems unfair to the mafia to give those players full 'mafia' victories, but is some kind of 'minor victory' really an incentive?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Suggestion: Players who back the Thing will be counted as a draw if the Thing wins, loss if the town wins.

0.5 points in the statistics thread, not a full point. It's a risk, and staying townie is worth a full point. So, risk/reward.

[Reenk Roink]

It was actually very hard for me to be able to find consistency in this game. My schedule basically at game onset got extremely busy with classes starting up again. I would have loved to go and read up on everyone I replaced again and make an informed decision and an accurate representation. Instead I had to settle for impressions. I don't think my word choice was the problem with impersonating you. I doubt anyone but yourself could have caught on to minor problems in diction like that (I wasn't posting like I would post in a philosophy of science thread in the backroom). My problem wasn't the style of the posts as it was the content. Your posts are generally longer and usually have a narrative structure even for the most concise of points. I didn't really have the time or energy at the time to replicate that. Thankfully, you were much quieter this game and also pretended to act like me. Same with GH, all I could do was post in his style, not so much his content. I had planned for a bit to replace GH earlier, because he impressed me, but I never got around to researching his posts. I just went on impressions.

With that being said, my schedule did help me in this way. I am awake a lot at night, and on my desk a lot. I can periodically browse the Org to see who's on. This is what happened with GH for the early part of the last day (bought my laptop to class tough guy ). DiY, you mentioned the timezone thing, but consider that as Paulie in the very beginning, I was posting at 5 AM (eastern). I'm a medical student. I don't sleep.

I lurked on and off just to let myself get away from the game for a bit. Lurking is also the very best strategy to win in this game, and lynching lurkers, which I hate doing in a lot of games with a lot of roles, is the best strategy for town. I'll talk more on that.

Finally, GH, first of all, while Stamkos could potentially not even be in his prime yet, I think he's hit his ceiling. And Lecavalier is more talented, and more dynamic. Stamkos is a shooter, and he's very reliant on speed. Lecavalier is stronger, has much better puck control and stickhandling, and is a lot more creative. Lecavalier has been a disappointment given his pretty darn good career, because of his talent. He should have been a hall of famer at this point. I think now that Tampa's top 6 is a little weaker, Lecavalier will get more time with St. Louis, which means Stamkos will get less time with him. And that is bad for Stamkos.

Were you a better hockey scout , I would have straight up killed Monty and kept Sonny. I was guessing you would go for Arjos or classical, as you were prone to before.

I'll post the rest of my thoughts on the game later today when I get time.

[johnhughthom]

Suggestion: Players who back the Thing will be counted as a draw if the Thing wins, loss if the town wins.

0.5 points in the statistics thread, not a full point. It's a risk, and staying townie is worth a full point. So, risk/reward.

Meh, why should dead people get the chance to go for any sort of win based on somebody else's play?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Meh, why should dead people get the chance to go for any sort of win based on somebody else's play?

Consider it betting on the race horse you want to win.

Because it's the scum's play, rather than the town's, that would be required, and you were townie, then you take the half-point loss anyway and hope that your bet on the scums recoups at least the half-point.

Betting on townies if they lose is worth a loss, or zero. Betting on townies if they win is worth a win, or 1.
Betting on scum if they lose is worth zero, betting on scum who win is worth half.

I think that's fair and makes the game more interesting for the dead, gives them a chance to win a half-point to make up for the lameness of being silenced.

[johnhughthom]

Hypothetical situation,

You are the sort of person that cares about your stats in Roman's thread, you are one win behind somebody you don't like. A game starts, you are mafia he's town. You kill him, he chooses you to win. You win the game for a point, he get's half a point and is still ahead of you. Sound fair?

The lameness of being silenced is part of mafia, if you want to talk don't die night one.

If I win a game as mafia I certainly wouldn't want people piggy backing on it.

[TheLastDays]

Because I could finally score a win this way?

Reenk! Well, first off, great job, it was great fun watching you and, as I said in the Dead QT, I think you did much more with the role than many others would have done. There was a reason I didn't volunteer for the job as thing. BUT I'm very disappointed you didn't take over my account

@TinCow: How bout this: Have two or three things with the ability to put their blood on someone at night but at the expense of killing. So they could either "frame" someone who will then appear as the thing to detectives or kill someone. Also, maybe you should put into the rules that the thing must not edit any past posts of the account it has taken over. I don't think Reenk did that it's just something that came to my mind when I posted my number pattern. It could easily have been avoided by editing two or three of them and then going on to post random numbers. Of course it didn't matter this game because Reenk didn't take over my account and obviously no one figured out the pattern anyway.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Hypothetical situation,

You are the sort of person that cares about your stats in Roman's thread, you are one win behind somebody you don't like. A game starts, you are mafia he's town. You kill him, he chooses you to win. You win the game for a point, he get's half a point and is still ahead of you. Sound fair?

Yep. I don't consider what their stats were before the game when considering whether or not scoring was fair for a particular game.

If they have more points, then they've likely earned them. Taking a half-point loss regardless of town win or scum win is fair for the betting game I've suggested. Not fair would be getting full points for betting against your team.

The lameness of being silenced is part of mafia, if you want to talk don't die night one.

I just choose not to join games where I can't talk if I'm dead. The FUN of this game is being able to participate or influence your chances of winning.

If you can't talk, betting on the winner is fine with me.

If I win a game as mafia I certainly wouldn't want people piggy backing on it.

That's because you're a selfish, greedy man.

[johnhughthom]

I think the problem was more that there was nothing to figure out in the dead quicktopic, Reenk revealed before I even got a buddy. A larger game, with pro town roles and slightly different Thing mechanics, would give the dead topics to talk about in the QT, other than just "Reenk is awesome!!" from everybody.

I just choose not to join games where I can't talk if I'm dead. The FUN of this game is being able to participate or influence your chances of winning.

I would probably choose not to join a game where the dead can switch sides.

Guess we gotta agree to disagree on this one.

[Arjos]

In the QT you got to laugh, while here was nothing but confusion and headaches :D

[Askthepizzaguy]

topics to talk about in the QT, other than just "Reenk is awesome!!" from everybody.

Probably the most productive QT of all time.

[Montmorency]

@TinCow: How bout this: Have two or three things with the ability to put their blood on someone at night but at the expense of killing. So they could either "frame" someone who will then appear as the thing to detectives or kill someone. Also, maybe you should put into the rules that the thing must not edit any past posts of the account it has taken over. I don't think Reenk did that it's just something that came to my mind when I posted my number pattern. It could easily have been avoided by editing two or three of them and then going on to post random numbers. Of course it didn't matter this game because Reenk didn't take over my account and obviously no one figured out the pattern anyway.

I like this. But with two Things.

[Reenk Roink]

Because I could finally score a win this way?

Reenk! Well, first off, great job, it was great fun watching you and, as I said in the Dead QT, I think you did much more with the role than many others would have done. There was a reason I didn't volunteer for the job as thing. BUT I'm very disappointed you didn't take over my account

@TinCow: How bout this: Have two or three things with the ability to put their blood on someone at night but at the expense of killing. So they could either "frame" someone who will then appear as the thing to detectives or kill someone. Also, maybe you should put into the rules that the thing must not edit any past posts of the account it has taken over. I don't think Reenk did that it's just something that came to my mind when I posted my number pattern. It could easily have been avoided by editing two or three of them and then going on to post random numbers. Of course it didn't matter this game because Reenk didn't take over my account and obviously no one figured out the pattern anyway.

TLD, I'll be honest, I killed you because of your number thing. First of all, I'm quoting The freakin' Analyst here. The situational irony was overwhelming. Second, you do realize that although The Thing doesn't know about your number pattern, neither does anyone else. So I was not impressed with the numbers and foreign language things (DiY: who else speaks Chinese here?).

I did regret killing you later on, because GH had started to slow down from his strong start, and I kinda wanted you to be in endgame.

Speaking of GH, was it just me (probably not, he got a ton of votes on him throughout the game) or was he extremely, well, scummy, this entire game? Saying he was being consistent explicitly, trying to get into my psyche (Reenk's Razor v1 was never intended for actual deployment, it was to make a caustic point about the arbitrariness of Ockham's Razor, Reenk's Razor v2 is much improved and can actually be deployed as a guiding heuristic), I even thought his Vinny defense thing was suspicious, leaving a lurker alive so a Thing could later use him. If I was a townie, I would have lynched GH just for being a distraction.

[Arjos]

The thing is (XD) with your Pizza performance, which is stuff of legend, there was so much confusion going on...
I started with a non-voting policy; then to whatever town had up and running 'cos there was just chaos; followed by get rid of lurkers since the few left had actually a profile that could be double checked...

[TheLastDays]

I thought so, man but I figured there was a slight chance someone would figure it out. It wasn't unsolvable at all. And if no one figured it out it wouldn't do any harm either so I jus continued doing it. Other than the numbers I was pretty much myself.

[johnhughthom]

Nearly forgot, thanks for the game TinCow, your contributions to the Gameroom recently have been exceptional.

And double thanks for putting up with my delusional theories when I died.

[Reenk Roink]

One option might simply be to give the people confined to the Dead Thread a reason to help the Thing. Perhaps all Dead Thread players are allowed to choose whether they want to back town or mafia. It is a one-off, irreversible choice that must be made before the end of the next game phase after they die. Players who back town will win with the town as per usual. Players who back mafia will... what? It seems unfair to the mafia to give those players full 'mafia' victories, but is some kind of 'minor victory' really an incentive?

If you think it about in terms of victories, it does become hard. I generally ignore the win/loss thing. How many times have I been a completely worthless or dead townie and won the game? It means nothing to me. In the Settlement, technically two people fulfilled all of their victory conditions, Seamus and Rhythmic. However, how can you ignore CA fulfilling his? Or many of the other special roles. This kind of stuff becomes impossible to quantify.

I was thinking of YLC's game Whispers in the Night when I made the suggestion. Dead townies were not allowed to post in thread, they went to a quicktopic. They had a protown contact and a collective investigation ability. However, the Mafia also could convert ghosts to their side. The mafia got nothing out of this except an eye on the ghosts, but it could be expanded.

I suppose the biggest incentive would be the abilities. If the dead town as a whole likes the way the Thing is playing, they can back him with abilities. If not, they can try and hinder him. Maybe the prothing abilities are more interesting for the incentive?

[Reenk Roink]

BTW Reenk, beside GH and Monty (I kinda have an idea), why did you keep me and classical alive?

I kept GH alive mainly because at first I wanted to replace him. Later on, his activity was becoming less interesting, and so I wanted to fool him. I couldn't decide at the end so I gave him a little question.

I kept Monty alive because he's a profile/activity watcher. I had guessed this would be the most difficult thing about replacements (From the first Analyst quote: "It hath been an old remark that Lestarde (replaced Geometry - reference to Kommodus's profile watching program) is an excellent Logic. And it must be owned, that when the Definitions are clear; when the Postulata cannot be refused, nor the Axioms denied; when from the distinct Contemplation and Comparison of Figures, their Properties are derived, by a perpetual well-connected chain of Consequences, the Objects being still kept in view, and the attention ever fixed upon them; there is acquired a habit of reasoning, close and exact and methodical: which habit strengthens and sharpens the Mind, and being transferred to other Subjects, is of general use in the inquiry after Truth. But how far this is the case of our Behavioral Analysts, it may be worth while to consider.) In fact, had GH selected otherwise, I most likely would have killed Monty, because activity watching is kinda cheap just like the number/language thing. It's just more effective than those.

I kept you alive personally because I liked how you played. I thought you had good instincts. Sad to say I was right. Good job

I kept Lucanio alive because I really didn't know who he was at the time. Granted after that, I went back and thought he was classical, but before I never expended the effort to figure him out. Most others I was able to get just by my regular reading of the thread. So I figured, hey this guy is pretty sneaky.

Also, I'm sorry to hear about your illness c_h, and hope all the best for you. Monty, it's OK to not buy the RL excuses (Sigurd has used them a lot), but I thought the way you confronted c_h about it was really mean.

[Arjos]

Eh eh, well I really appreciate your code, and as I said even losing against such a Thing is nothing shameful...
Many thanks to TinCow for hosting and best wishes for a full recovery classical ^^

[TheLastDays]

True, thanks for the game TinCow, looking forward to the large game.

[classical_hero]

I think it is going to be impossible to stop people from guessing who you via activity, since you can tell if someone has been active by checking on other games, if they are playing other games. So I don't see how being invisible will help with that regard, since that is how I realised the Reenk was Vito by looking at two different games going on at the same time. So I am not too sure how we are going to solve the problem with. Also what did people think of my strategy to post for much of the game in Italian?

[TheLastDays]

Honestly, I ignored your posts because I was too lazy to put them through a translator to read them ^^

[Arjos]

Since I'm Italian, I was just lolling at the auto-translations XD

[classical_hero]

Since I'm Italian, I was just lolling at the auto-translations XD

I'm glad it gave you a laugh.

I like this quote from TC in the QT

He'd been toying with the idea for a while, but decided to wait out the second day before doing it. It's certainly an entertaining move, and must be rather fun for him. I don't know about you guys, but whenever I'm scum I always wish I could publicly taunt the town. Reenk actually gets to do so while still having a chance at victory. Play straight during the day, have fun at night.

In one mafia game I was confirmed about half way as being a killable mafia and yet because they thought I was the head mafia who could not be killed before the rest of my scum buddies were still around, so as result I had a great time taunting the town and when they eventually fond out the real unkillable guy, they thought it was someone else, so it was an enjoyable romp.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Great game everyone, especially to Reenk.

I've just moved into my place for the semester, so I don't have much time right now, but here are a couple of quick thoughts on the game:

1) Reenk, the reason why I seemed to be slowing down at the end was intentional. After that initial "list" that you liked, I twice purposely held off on going all-out after you because I wanted more time to gather information so as to make a stronger case. Unfortunately, I took too long both times. The first time was when I thought you had taken over Pizza's role, and then you killed Pizza. The second time was the endgame, and then I died. Had you waited a round longer either time, I think I would have become a bit more interesting.

2) Had I picked Lecavalier over Stamkos and you had let me live, I had a plan to figure out if you were either Nick/Monty or Sonny/DiY. I know DiY well enough to ask him a question only he could answer, and with Nick/Monty, as I mentioned in the QT, I would have been able to get you from the image hosting thing. If you had taken over either Frank or Luciano, I would have had a tougher time but in the end those odds are 50-50, which aren't bad.

3) That last round... heh. I think there was a point in time where Reenk and I were just staring at each other's profiles for about ten minutes, constantly refreshing. Probably the closest thing you'll ever get to an internet staredown.

Excellent game to TinCow, definitely my favorite I've played this year (which isn't saying much, but still). Everybody, I had a great time playing with you and best wishes for a speedy recovery, classical.

[Reenk Roink]

2) Had I picked Lecavalier over Stamkos and you had let me live, I had a plan to figure out if you were either Nick/Monty or Sonny/DiY. I know DiY well enough to ask him a question only he could answer, and with Nick/Monty, as I mentioned in the QT, I would have been able to get you from the image hosting thing. If you had taken over either Frank or Luciano, I would have had a tougher time but in the end those odds are 50-50, which aren't bad.

I would have to stick with Sonny though, because I cant kill Monty but replace another guy. I didn't know about the thing you knew about DiY, so yeah, I'd be doomed there most likely. Nice planning though, I was getting the impression that you weren't to concerned about DiY.

The image hosting thing is another thing altogether. I doubt I'd respond to that. Then again, I never planned on replacing Monty. I know you and I know Atpg fairly well to try and skim on impressions even if it isn't perfect. I'd probably botch a Monty impersonation badly. Plus the guy kept changing his style. Monty seemed to think he got me to chat with you as Sonny on the last day because of the "I like your writeups comment" but that wasn't it. The first thing I did was send in the order to replace Vito. Despite quoting Journey, I did know where I would have been tomorrow.

3) That last round... heh. I think there was a point in time where Reenk and I were just staring at each other's profiles for about ten minutes, constantly refreshing. Probably the closest thing you'll ever get to an internet staredown.

I was wondering about the "Viewing User Profile" thing of yours. I had guessed it was me.

I found out that the profile watching thing CAN be beat if you are able and willing to put the time and effort, but it gets very boring. For the first 4 hours of the game I was refreshing every 15 minutes. Then it slowed down as activity did. I wanted to give up by late afternoon (I asked TinCow if I could request you use invisible mode for the rest of the round but he couldn't say yes cause of the rules), and by evening I did. And you know what, if Monty is going to refresh for 11 hours, he deserves to win.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I was wondering about the "Viewing User Profile" thing of yours. I had guessed it was me.

I found out that the profile watching thing CAN be beat if you are able and willing to put the time and effort, but it gets very boring. For the first 4 hours of the game I was refreshing every 15 minutes. Then it slowed down as activity did. I wanted to give up by late afternoon (I asked TinCow if I could request you use invisible mode for the rest of the round but he couldn't say yes cause of the rules), and by evening I did. And you know what, if Monty is going to refresh for 11 hours, he deserves to win.

Yeah, I guess mods can see exactly which user profile anyone's viewing. That was pretty funny.

As soon as I noticed you were corresponding your responses as Vito with my online times, I actually took the step of logging off the .Org and keeping track of things as a guest, which I never do. So you got me to do that at least. And btw, I made a promise to myself and a few other people to never go into invisible mode, even if the host recommends it. So basically unless the host explicity demands such a thing or else I'm not allowed to play, I'm staying visible so you can always track my activity that way.

[TinCow]

And btw, I made a promise to myself and a few other people to never go into invisible mode, even if the host recommends it.

Out of curiosity, why? I always prefer to be invisible for mafia games, though I do return to normal when I'm not involved in a game for Org-staff-approachability reasons.