Netherworld III: Final Judgment [Concluded]

[woad&fangs]

unvote: chaotix; vote: Beskar
I know I'm not Hades. I know MRD is not Hades. I believe Chaotix enough to let him keep doing his thing but a list of people he has role blocked on which nights would be useful. More information only helps the town at this point. The Beskar vote is a random vote from amongst the other living.

[woad&fangs]

Unvote: Beskar; Vote: TLD
Meh, TLD is good enough. I'll follow the herd.

[Askthepizzaguy]

You are voting for that person...

Pizza all this is very confusing, you say you are and were a townie but at the same time defending TLD who is using the argument you were mafia to accuse others... bloody paradox...

I haven't been following very closely since I died. TLD thought I was mafia?

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Wrong doesn't mean he was scum though, it just means he was wrong, like so many here.

[Earthling]

Some of this discussion is quite a mess, don't know where to start. I'll go with the scum we have left, as asked for and my best theory of what we actually have.

There's the sword/fire killer. The only person to claim this is "Hades" was TLD, and he's had so many posts that reek of PIS it's still implausible to me that he's town. FWIW I am certainly good with that lynch today too.

I rather believe this killer is in a last mafia/mafia godfather situation, because of "finally showing himself," being able to kill through protection, and all the other mafia killers disappearing.

So I'd say 1 mafia, part of the original mafia team. The other 3 out of 4 (all killers seen in the writeups) seem to be dead. Preferable we would get him first.

I doubt that if there is any anti-town cult that they will gain kills or win immediately if we eliminate the mafia.

That said I'd certainly agree there are WAYYYYYY too many non-town and neutrals here, with no reveals and our limited tools for the town. Then we have people like Andres implying to have ended up in a second cult group rivaling the first (??? but he said the cults, plural, might oppose each other) so it's possible they are not fully anti-town anyway.

After the mafia are gone, if we don't win then it will be obvious. We'd need get whatever cult leader is left and it hopefully vanilla cultists won't matter after that.

That gives us a second "scum to look for" then.

Last mafia, cult leader. If we can be sure of getting either then of course go for them first, one mafia isn't going to win immediately either so we'd have a few more lynches yet if we could get the cult leader and guarantee we're safe from the cult first.

now some other comments on other stuff that came up:

If you were asking for/about anything I said or my views and wanted more than what I said above what you're looking for is probably below. All comments on public talk or the writeups again, anyway I still don't intend to run afoul of rules on reveals, still being careful, if someone does see something they think too much point it out or I'll wait and not respond more.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

first order of business I think relates to the lynch, I don't get pizza's defense of TLD either.

If pizza is vanilla townie, nothing he says would have any real evidence to it, so not worth hanging on his every word. A perspective is useful, sure, but he literally shouldn't have any additional information to worry about if he was vanilla town. And if he's not vanilla, then way too easy for him to be purposefully misleading especially as he already implied several times including with his own lynch that he was vanilla and we shouldn't listen much either.

The Last Days, tell us what Pizza wants to tell us.

So this is the best answer to what pizza has posted as far as I can tell. Though sorry to say I think it's a bit of a catch-22, if TLD claims vanilla and continues to claim pizza is lynched mafia that means we ignore any protests and just get it over with, and if TLD admits he's not vanilla that confirms like everybody's zillion suspicions of him the whole time. I guess we could accept him revealing as something like cult+the names of his other cultists so we can just catch the last mafia with the additional info, but even then he'd be fishy.

As for whoever pointed out the glyphz/jht connection, I believe it might have been Ironside and developed further with choxorn's case on jht. I can't take credit for the original idea, however I did look at their votes and as a result of that I do also agree there could be a connection.

So it doesn't make much sense that glyphz or jht are mafia, because of their votes against multiple other lynchees we suspect are the mafia, and when glyphz was about to get lynched basically nobody but townies were voting in his favor (and he didn't seem to care much anyway if he died, which could only go for a townie/cult recruit). So all that put together, plus the roleblocks on glyphz, it's possible they are cult but I would rule them out as mafia.

Lastly, Beskar, I don't know where you are getting that Mainyu is one of the player's characters. There is no good evidence of that in any writeup and it doesn't seem likely, unless you want to clarify you have more significant claims or info.

I get that the writeups are fiendish and confusing, I definitely can't be sure who is neutral, non-town, or what except in very few cases. Still, Mainyu seems like an NPC, unless you suspect a Loki-like situation to use an analogy, the very first death in the first night hints at something like that too but if that's true at this point we're in huge trouble so rather assume not. And some stuff, like the little girl/grandpa who've been varying wildly, and even disappeared from Diamondeye's lynch (first time since Day 1???) I have absolutely no idea if it's supposed to be clues or meaningful in the end.

Basically, I'd summarize that the writeups are massively confusing and the point of not revealing town or mafia remains intact, we barely have a handful of people confirmed as anything. GE as mafia and people killed at night are what we seem to know - otherwise many dead suspects like Renata, white_eyes, and Andres could have been neutrals, mafia, cult, anything.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I can be vanilla and still have information.

The info comes not from my role or abilities, obviously.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Basically, I can point out avenues of logic that you're overlooking. I just can't say what I know.

[Chaotix]

unvote: chaotix; vote: Beskar
I know I'm not Hades. I know MRD is not Hades. I believe Chaotix enough to let him keep doing his thing but a list of people he has role blocked on which nights would be useful. More information only helps the town at this point. The Beskar vote is a random vote from amongst the other living.

If I do this, then the mafia suddenly know exactly who to kill in order to stay alive. It's a double-edged sword.

That said, if the majority of you guys say you want the list of my roleblocks, then I'll give it.

Also, I should be able to do at least one more roleblock before I get night-killed. I've been contacted by another doctor, so... he's either going to take the hit for me or we'll get lucky and the kill through protection was a one-time thing.

On this ATPG/TLD business: first, we have no guarantee that ATPG is innocent, or if so if his information is correct. I'd love to be able to rule someone out, but if TLD's not gonna spill the beans and ATPG isn't allowed to... color me skeptical here. Could be total truth, on the flipside it could be desperate dead scum trying to save his buddy.

[Earthling]

On the TLD/pizza situation I could say more but it really seems fruitless until living people either can answer or refuse to answer to things. If he or someone wants to hear more I could post part of a post I'd written up but cutting it here.

However, going back to look over some posts and issues brought up something else I am concerned about, definitely the best contribution I've got today, so this is for everyone.

Let's shift gears and ask something that's fairly independent, about just one person, and easy for anyone to read up on.

It would still trouble me enough not to see a lynch TLD today and this is not really for his own sake but the fact that there seems to be a more efficient, pro-town option for the lynch. I'm thinking I'll put myself down for encouraging a lynch of MRD as things stand right now.

If MRD is a major scum we needed to lynch, hurray, we're winning. If not, he's a cultist, so we're running in place at worst and hopefully the cult doesn't recruit every night so that might be a worthwhile blow.

Basically, it's the fact that it's a lynch with nothing to lose, and unless MRD/formerly robbiecon was cleared of being mafia for good reason it's not a bad chance of that either. Or if it's purely a cultist thing and the cultists are lying and MRD defends himself, well that's progress too.

The last mafia, even if he is TLD, can't win by overpowering everyone yet. So the MRD lynch looks too promising.

So when I went back looking at some posts, what we see with robbiecon then MRD is absurdly out of line. The main issue first is:

MRD, how can you have had some major anti-cult role/abilities and now you got recruited by the (a??) cult? That really needs answering immediately, more questions could follow.

[Askthepizzaguy]

On this ATPG/TLD business: first, we have no guarantee that ATPG is innocent, or if so if his information is correct. I'd love to be able to rule someone out, but if TLD's not gonna spill the beans and ATPG isn't allowed to... color me skeptical here. Could be total truth, on the flipside it could be desperate dead scum trying to save his buddy.

1) TLD should definitely answer, I agree.
2) Dead scum trying to save buddy? Toss out this option, I never do this.

[Earthling]

Actually, I'm just going to list out the general case, that seems best for the town at large here. Voting deadlines and no guarantee MRD responds and whatever, no need to be a stickler, I can write out everything and if people think to ignore it or decide it's just too much paranoia they're doing it with all the details, not waiting for me to say more tomorrow.

1) robbiecon's posts while he was around were simply scummy. He actively defended God Emperor who we're pretty sure was scum now, and that's about all he did actually.

2) robbiecon's character role gets a replacement player after he's been gone awhile, other presumed townies get WoK'd. Also this was already mentioned by other players, and the replacement issue is never perfect evidence on its own but it also beats random chance by far that something fishy is going on.

3) MRD makes vague implications about some anti-cult ability, then the claim is that he's with a cult.

What are our options of what is actually the case?

MRD/formerly robbiecon is still a townie. We do have a non zero chance that MRD is making stuff up just to be funny, I think many of us would say. But robbiecon was scummy, hence robbiecon was vanilla townie is a bad automatic assumption, and then we double down against just a joke with w&f claiming MRD is with the cult.

Or, he was a basic townie and is just a cult recruit now. Explains MRD acting silly, because he can, and w&f saying what he said so this is perhaps most likely.

Or, he's some other real scum who's only faking his way or made some alliance with a cult. Explains every observation here but doesn't mean some of them aren't just coincidences.

So if we lynch MRD, what happens?

Best case scenario is we lynch a real scum.
Worst case scenario is we lynch a cultist.

The very worst case of lynching a townie really looks to be out of the picture here - if MRD is something else neutral or is town we'd expect him to come clean and explain his role before the lynch.

I know the lynch overall could feel disappointing unless we have new evidence but it's also a strategic move for the town as we get near endgame.

And all that said, I highly doubt MRD or the former robbiecon was investigated/blocked in any way that could clear things up but someone living who can weigh in on that would help if it's relevant.

[Earthling]

Actually, put me back down for endorsing the TLD lynch. It just has to happen, no need for second guessing and I truly can't believe that he is a vanilla townie.

I'm letting annoyance at neutrals/cults in this game get to me too much. MRD being a basic cult recruit is very plausible but not enough of a catch if that's all it is, I'm convincing myself into hoping it would be more. Getting the mafia is the priority, and I should go with that.

We could easily just follow up tomorrow on MRD if nothing at all changes after this lynch, and much less trouble for everyone to do TLD today and possible-cult-situation-if-it-even-matters tomorrow than vice versa.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Earthling, you're annoyingly close to the solution. Don't, stop, thinking.

[Earthling]

Really the town as a whole is very close and I think we'll still get it. An awful lot of townies deserves a ton of credit for many past successes and even the vanillas who did everything they could to provide votes on key past lynches or the votes we need at the end here have earned it.

It's not that I plan to give up on explaining possibilities and passing on to the town as much as I can within the rules, it's that I don't feel like I'm helping that much by repeating info or causing clutter.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I still think TLD can't be a vanilla townie. And if he's not, the town are fully justified in lynching him. The problem is, yes, I can see a possibility for him not being with the main mafia group either. It just might not be worth fighting against the grain, the town always neeoilds to avoid even worse possible vote swings after all and

It does bother me that the most rational, Bayesian outlook here would say that lynching TLD isn't the optimal move for a townie victory. But it's what everybody wants, including me. With the same crowd that would opt to keep Loki alive because it's funny even though we'll lose to the Jotun, and a dozen things in a dozen other games, it's safe to say no one would want to see TLD survive as some other neutral/cult/third party after the town endures such a disastrously scummy performance. More "efficient" to save the TLD lynch for one or two days, as if he's the last scum left it still wouldn't matter - maybe, but it's tough to call such an option.

Here's something slightly more productive, townies in general or interested people can read it:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A lot of the still living people in general have definitely been failing to give their opinions on who was already scum, which should be the most important evidence of all if we can get it right, lacking actual reveals. We lynched people, mafia killers disappeared from the writeups, we have to all agree on that.

And pizza I don't see how you couldn't give your opinions on this by the rules too, if you do it as based on the writeups, that could help the town if you're interested and should be free of you spoiling anything.

So actually, if anyone else is changing votes, making a new vote, etc... it would be great if you could give your thoughts on the general status we're at, and with today's lynch the following statement. This is information in the voting record or theories already referenced before, and is really the heart of the matter.

Hypothesis:
TLD can't be with the main mafia because he voted against Renata, who was a member of the main mafia.

If you disagree with the conclusion on Renata this whole dilemma is ridiculously easy and you've probably stopped reading my posts by now. That's ok.

My problem is I personally believe it's more likely Renata was mafia than a couple others like white_eyes or fluffy. And that just can't be reconciled with TLD being mafia. Even though he's ridiculously scummy and I agree I want him gone. So then the lynch of TLD won't be a game winner, when we get some other evil neutral guy we just need to make sure things don't collapse in the follow up on other cases.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If Renata was the main mafia (I haven't been paying attention.... ) then I know for certain that TLD is not the main mafia.

Being dead really sucks, here. You people should not have lynched me.

[Major Robert Dump]

Andres is anti-cult because there were two cults and he was in the one that opposes the current cult.

If your character name is Anjou Mainyu you really need to PM me. I have something to give you

@ Earthling: I never claimed to have anti-cult abilities. I claimed to have abilities that could benefit the town and asked for PMs, and the town goals and cult goals are not mutually exclusive. The cult is not out to get the town, at least according to my boss.

Since I know you're gonna ask or threaten a lynch, I will reveal what my pro-town ability is: I have the ability to make stuff up so people will PM me because I am lonely and wanting to cyberz.

Chaotix and TLD both PMd me, they both claimed to be town, both asked for my ability. Chaotix says he is a roleblocker working with Yrapolk and that he caught GH.

TLD claims to be a vanilla townie and says Chaotix is the only other claimed pro-townie power role and is likely to be lynched before me.

When I admitted to my ability, neither party, for the record, wanted cyberz.

[Choxorn]

unvote: chaotix; vote: Beskar
I know I'm not Hades. I know MRD is not Hades. I believe Chaotix enough to let him keep doing his thing but a list of people he has role blocked on which nights would be useful. More information only helps the town at this point. The Beskar vote is a random vote from amongst the other living.

Unvote: Beskar; Vote: TLD
Meh, TLD is good enough. I'll follow the herd.

Alert: Set SCUMCON to SCUMCON 1. Scumdar has detected major scumminess.

Translation: These two posts are really scummy, he is guilty of fishing, and randomvoting followed by immediate switching to a bandwagon, and mild tones of PIS. woad&fangs needs to be lynched after you've gotten rid of TLD.

[Diamondeye]

I hope CH gets Wogged since you apparently aren't going to vote him.

[classical_hero]

I hope CH gets Wogged since you apparently aren't going to vote him.

I'm still here. I it just that some times I forget to vote and the dead talking are not giving much clarity to this thread. Perhaps you could enlighten us why you think I should be lynched? Since their is a massive wagon on TLD I don't think we need any more votes on him right now, since we need another target.

[Beskar]

And this fire-guy(Hades) going after Choxorn instead of Chaotix? Really?

I just thought of something hilarious... they mixed up Choxorn for Chaotix...

Warman is the mafia all along!

Edit:

The Beskar vote is a random vote from amongst the other living.

No, actually. There are 4 people I have down as being hades, which TLD and W&F are two of them.

If there is a cult, I have three people down as being cultists/cult leader.

One down as possible pro-town and between two people I suspect of being Anjou Mainyu. Leaving three others as being marked down as "Vanilla Town".

[johnhughthom]

Vote:woad&fangs

Squirmy.

[Riedquat]

Unvote: Beskar; Vote: TLD
Meh, TLD is good enough. I'll follow the herd.

Really? You, the one who suggested lynching all the power roles in order to win? And honestly it seems you so far had voted following that premise, why the sudden change?

I haven't been following very closely since I died. TLD thought I was mafia?

He thinks it now, can't say for sure what he thought or not; Now...I think you were something, don't know what....

If I do this, then the mafia suddenly know exactly who to kill in order to stay alive. It's a double-edged sword.

How convenient... Adding to the fact now, not only there is one protown alive but two... if the numbers of protowns and cultists keep increasing at this rate we'll reach the conclusion Andres suggestion about the numbers in this game were very accurate....

Earthling, you're annoyingly close to the solution. Don't, stop, thinking.

Holy walls of text Earthling!

If Renata was the main mafia (I haven't been paying attention.... ) then I know for certain that TLD is not the main mafia.

Being dead really sucks, here. You people should not have lynched me.

Again, go back and look who lynched you...
Is TLD mafia? I don't know for sure, mafia or town is a big distraction...

Andres is anti-cult because there were two cults and he was in the one that opposes the current cult.

If your character name is Anjou Mainyu you really need to PM me. I have something to give you

@ Earthling: I never claimed to have anti-cult abilities. I claimed to have abilities that could benefit the town and asked for PMs, and the town goals and cult goals are not mutually exclusive. The cult is not out to get the town, at least according to my boss.

Since I know you're gonna ask or threaten a lynch, I will reveal what my pro-town ability is: I have the ability to make stuff up so people will PM me because I am lonely and wanting to cyberz.

Chaotix and TLD both PMd me, they both claimed to be town, both asked for my ability. Chaotix says he is a roleblocker working with Yrapolk and that he caught GH.

TLD claims to be a vanilla townie and says Chaotix is the only other claimed pro-townie power role and is likely to be lynched before me.

When I admitted to my ability, neither party, for the record, wanted cyberz.

I must admit that is one of the best abilities I heard about!

[classical_hero]

vote:Woad&Fang

[johnhughthom]

vote:Woad&Fang

Thank you for your contribution. I will assume United's victory has rendered you almost speechless, at least you voted.

[Askthepizzaguy]

vote:Woad&Fang

Wait, this will only result in an incomplete lynch. Don't you realize? He's woad&fangS, there are at least two of them, probably four.

You lynch one fang and the other ones will still bite ya.

[Askthepizzaguy]

WAIT a second. WOAD is still alive too?

What the heck is wrong with you people???

[woad&fangs]

Go back and read Netherworld 1 and it should be pretty obvious why I am not the mafia in this one.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Go back and read Netherworld 1 and it should be pretty obvious why I am not the mafia in this one.

Go back and read War and Peace and it should be obvious why I am not mafia.

How about you summarize it for me, woad&"fang"?

[woad&fangs]

When Hades showed up in this game the odds for him were... 1:15 or something like that? Khaan writes the coolest power role fight scenes in the gameroom. I would have attacked Chaotix and the cultists head on to get some cool fight scenes going by now just like I did in Netherworld 1. Especially since the last mafioso is obviously Hades. Seriously Hades.

[Choxorn]

And who's to say you wouldn't have decided to do different tactics in this game, going after townies so that you and the neutrals could thin them about a bit before you had to fight each other?

I take it back: Screw TLD, lynch this guy.

[TheLastDays]

Well, first of all, I'll be scummy again and try to save my own butt: unvote, vote: woad&fangs

Now, back to business:

Sorry, for not replaying earlier. I was out of town today and just came back. I am extremely tired but not surprised by what I find here. I knew I was on the chopping block for today and so it turned out.

Guys, I'm sorry for whatever of this might be my fault, I have given this game my best shot. I know, you don't believe I am a vanilla townie, the best thing you would believe about me right now seems to be some third party/cult role but you're wrong and you'll be proven wrong at the end of the game. I am as vanilla as they come. As I said, I gave this my best shot. I was hunting for scum for the entire game. When I contributed more than others that was because I wanted to solve this game and posting and talking are all the tools I have as a vanilla townie. I was wrong a few times, at least Earthling is proven to be a townie and I went after him hard. Bad call on my part. I went after Believer and it turned out that he was something. His death writeup doesn't really make me believe he was pro-town as does his disappearance after death.

There's been a lot of talking about PIS from my side (Hades and other things). Well, there is no PIS, because, again, I. Am. Vanilla. If it turns out I was right about these things (which isn't a given. I'm not even certain the killer we see doing his work at night is Hades. I just assumed so because of the similarities to Hades in Netherworld I. I started calling him Hades out of simplicity) you could have all seen them yourselves because every information I have is very well available to all of you. It's in this thread.

There is one thing that isn't and that's my private discussion with MRD. I'll put the contents here, so you have them, should you lynch me today and thus rid me of the possibility to reveal anything. Pleas keep in mind, that he claims to be cult and a mere member, so there are several ways that this could be misinformation. He could be fooling me. He could have been fooled by his superiors, etc.

Anyway, MRD told me he was recruited by a cult who has the goal to find a certain role and for their leader to "have sex" with that role. Whatever effect that is going to have he claims to have no knowledge about. He told me that they believe Chaotix is scum because they tried to recruit him and the recruitment failed. I don't necessarily follow that conclusion, because if Chaotix is an importaint pro-town role, which he claims to be, he could very well be immune to recruitment as well. He also said it looked like there were about 4-5 people in that cult.

That's about it, MRD you can confirm that you told me that or deny it, whatever you feel like. That said, if there is Angra Mayniu as a role in this game I seriously want to discourage that player from revealing to MRD. Or any other player, for that matter. I don't think MRD is really dangerous but if he is what he claims, the risk just outweighs any possible benefit of revealing to him.

Now, why should you not lynch me? Well, if I'm such a distraction, I'm sorry. Still I am a pro town vote and we don't know how many we have left. I'm not scum, I'm not third party but you make your call.

Now on to one more thing:

The Last Days, tell us what Pizza wants to tell us.

I have no idea. I wish I had. Pizza makes all this sound like there is something in this game that I can figure out about why I can't be scum if he wasn't scum. Now, that's weird, because, while not 100% sure, I assumed Pizza was scum, just because the green man disappeared after Pizza's lynch, as random as that lynch was. Still, I really wish I knew what he wants me to reveal, I had fairly little personal discussion with him during this game.

I just went over my whole chatlogs and most of our Mafia-related talks recently were about my own game and a game on another site Pizza was telling me about. About Netherworld I I only voiced my suspicion of Believer to him and also told him that I thought Earthling was behaving strangely.

Honestly, I don't see the connection, I would love to clear myself, you can bet on that but I'm not going to make up an ability or anything. Pizza made it look like the connection that would clear me was visible in the thread but I haven't found it yet and I might be too tired. Again, I gave this game my best shot, I was wrong a few times but a few players I usually respect for their analytical abilities (Secura, Earthling, etc.) are very wrong about me so I guess it's fair enough.

I have answered to every case or question made against me. If I overlooked anything, please restate it, I am willing to put in any effort that is necessary and if you still want to lynch me, fine. I don't think I can be blamed for that.