Civil War in Libya

[HoreTore]

I'd say that every democratic State is(and has to be) founded on secularism, but the population's religious feelings are not as relevant(see America).

It's a fine line though.

Norway's constitution, for example, defines Norway as a Christian state. In that sense, a country can of course be Islamic and still be a democracy.

[Fragony]

I'd say that every democratic State is(and has to be) founded on secularism, but the population's religious feelings are not as relevant(see America).

It's a fine line though.

Norway's constitution, for example, defines Norway as a Christian state. In that sense, a country can of course be Islamic and still be a democracy.

No it's impossible because islam is also a political system. Making it perfectly possible to claim that no islamic state actually exists by the way alas. But in it's purest form it isn't compatible with democracy.

[Centurion1]

Right obviously any country that is an islamic state cannot be a democracy. its laughable to assume so. When religion permeates government it leads to FAIL. I'm religious and thats fine but when it comes to my government ill take it with a big dollop of secularism. And by that I do not mean anti religion. The perfect democracy is neutral and therefore takes no stance. A government which is pro or anti religion is doomed to failure eventually or they need to change. Even Stalin participated with Orthodox leaders during WW2.

It may be wrong but the best form of government the world knows is democracy and democracy arises from the West. You can say what you want about how democracy doesn't fit every nation and I will call bull. Look beyond the West and every succesful non European nation is a western style democracy.

America, Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea, India, Brazil,

the only argument against democracy is China....... and eventually as the middle class grows China will implode. And even China isn't a dictatorship..... at least more than one man is in power. And even worse than a dictatorship in my eyes is a theocracy or a dictatorship married with a theocracy.

Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc.


The most stable nation in the middle east barring Israel (israel being a pretty decent example of a hyperreligious state putting secular government practices first) is Turkey. And Turkish generals have a tendency of staging coups when the fundi's get too uppity.

If Libya goes the way it could very well head, into an Islamic state, Libya is screwed. I just wonder how many more years and deaths until Middle Easterners finally realize that when they do these revolutions or try to depose dictators if they don't want to be in similar straits in 20 years they have to distance themselves politically from Islam. The vast majority of the ME is in my eyes a gigantic fail. If it wasn't for oil many of these states SA. Yemen, Iran, Iraq, etc would be horrendous. They hav inflated GDP's and such because of the oil and the worst part is there ar epeople who see those high gdp's and go well it can't be that bad off there..... they don't realize its a few princes or sheiks or what have you inflating up the poor sods who make up the majority.

Kill the power of the religion in politics and then and only then will killing your tin pot dictators be of value. I relish the day of western style democracies deposing Saudi Arabian "princes" i'll drop the JDAMS myself on that day.

[Montmorency]

Two issues: Australia is Western; South Africa is not Middle Eastern.

[Centurion1]

Two problems.

Read the sentence again.

South Africa is depressingly one of the more successful countries in Africa.

Also your little point there holds no merit whatsoever. I didn't say every democracy was successful but that the overwhelming majority of successful nations are democracies.

[Montmorency]

Did you even read my post? It's only one line.

[Centurion1]

Did you even read my post? It's only one line.

Two issues: Australia is Western; South Africa is not Middle Eastern.

Semi colon denotes separate thought. My comments are all valid.

Address them or you were simply trolling..... all your posts tend to be what I imagine are witty one liners while you type them.

[Adrian II]

Look beyond the West and every succesful non European nation is a western style democracy. America, Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea, India, Brazil [..]

It is interesting though that islamic countries usually are not doing worse than their non-islamic neighbours. Islam is often blamed for the nefarious effects of cultural traditions older than islam, colonial heritage, rampant tribalism, protracted wars and civil wars, and imperialist meddling.

Anatole Lieven makes the point eloquently in his book Pakistan, A Hard Country. Instead of copying its introduction by hand, let me copy and paste part of a review in The Guardian:

Certainly, an unblinkered vision of South Asia would feature a country whose fanatically ideological government in 1998 conducted nuclear tests, threatened its neighbour with all-out war and, four years later, presided over the massacre of 2,000 members of a religious minority. Long embattled against secessionist insurgencies on its western and eastern borders, the "flailing" state of this country now struggles to contain a militant movement in its heartland. It is also where thousands of women are killed every year for failing to bring sufficient dowry and nearly 200,000 farmers have committed suicide in the previous decade.

Needless to say, the country described above is not Pakistan but India, which, long feared to be near collapse, has revamped its old western image through what the American writer David Rieff calls the most "successful national re-branding" and "cleverest PR campaign" by a political and business establishment since "Cool Britannia" in the 1990s. Pakistan, on the other hand, seems to have lost all control over its international narrative.

AII

[Centurion1]

I do not blame Islam. I blame Islam if it permeates government as I do Christianity, Buddhism, or Animism when it is found within government.

Also yes I blame quite a few issues people associate with Islam in Arab countries with their respective cultural issues. Too often people confuse antiquated cultural practices with Islam itself.

[Adrian II]

I do not blame Islam. I blame Islam if it permeates government as I do Christianity, Buddhism, or Animism when it is found within government.

Also yes I blame quite a few issues people associate with Islam in Arab countries with their respective cultural issues. Too often people confuse antiquated cultural practices with Islam itself.

Good. Now if Islam is apparently able to 'absorb' many different cultural traditions, it could also 'absorb' democratic principles and institutions, right? If only the powers that be would tolerate it. Which they don't, because it is not in their political and material interest.

I think the real problem is not that a petrified Islam perpetuates dictatorships, but that it is the dictatorships that perpetuate a petrified Islam.

So how do we break that cycle?

AII

[Fragony]

Why should we break any cycles, let them figure it out themselves. Maybe, like the Russians, they prefer a strong hand that is more powerful than the individual tribes. We can almost completely leave the islam out of the equation that only matters in Europe. No real islamic state exists although Iran comes close