The death of free speech in the West.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I dislike the pretence, we are not all in it together, he was a lazy sod who tried to buddy up with the workers. Of the bosses I have had, I have much prefered the ones who smiled the least.

Yeah, but how's him being lazy tied to whether or not you can address the guy by his first name? I mean there are probably plenty of lazy sods who most certainly do cultivate a certain “elevation” above the subjects workers, too.

Maybe this is something quintessentially South West England, but I really don't see how addressing your boss by his first name changes anything in role or position of you or that of your boss. It's not like you're having affair with him or something, is it?

Obedience to authority is a learned behaviour, I learned to obey my parents at a young age. I was never punished for doing something, like not washing my hands, I would be punished for disobedience, like not washing my hands when told to do so.

This is why, at age 24, I have just spent the last week tidying my room after coming home.

. The cheeky response is to advise you not to let your parents hear that it took you a weak to tidy up a single room.

I was never treted as stupid, unless I acted like it, but I was taught that "because I say so" was a sufficient explanation in certain circumstances.

Sure but that is quite different from disallowing calls to back up your judgment with arguments and certainly quite removed from being disciplined.

People who don't learn that are a liability because later in life when someone in authority tells them "because I say so" they waste time with stupid question lie "why" which can wait until after you are out of the burning building/blast zone/way of the falling tree.

I don't think questioning the firefighters judgment in such a situation would be the first thing on my mind. And I don't think a five year old who asks his parents why at every turn for the fun of it would need telling twice either. All without them saying “because we say so”.

[Moros]

I think the "common man" still had manners, he still put on his Sunday best to go to Church, still open doors for women, still said "sir" to his boss.

Last Christmas I did a stint for Sainsbury's on the shop floor, and the most irritating thing was that everyone was a "colleague" from the manager to the 16yr old checkout girl. That was risible, because it denied the poor bastards at the bottom, me included, the right to define ourselves by our work, instead we had to be part of some "equal but not equal" collective.

If I have a boss I'd much rather call him "boss" "chief" "sir" "M'Lord" "Master" or even "Your Holiness" than Kevin.

Manners are not reserved to a social class, but they are about managing social situations, and they require people to have an identifiable station. Classlessness, or rather the lie of classlessness, is what destroyed manners in Britain.

That, and preventing parents from diciplining their children and encouraging children to ask "why" when given the most simple of instructions.

I actually agree to this to a certain degree.

[InsaneApache]

OK going a bit off topic.

I've been an employer and an employee. I've been a worker and a manager. In all those jobs I've used my first name. Anything else would be, well, weird frankly. To me it's never been a 'us' and 'them' thingy. We're all part of a team with different tasks to perform. Can't manage without workers. Can't work without management.

Mind you I did quite like being the boss.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Anti-facists at work.

What a load of *rhymes with bankers*

[Viking]

Relevant to bits of the thread is the sentencing of an interenet troll (who looks exactly like what one would expect an internet troll to look like, by the way ), one of the most read stories on BBC today.

A Berkshire man has been jailed for posting abusive messages online about a schoolgirl after she committed suicide.

Sean Duffy, 25, of Reading, was handed an 18-week sentence for posts on social networking sites about Worcester teenager Natasha MacBryde.

[...]

She had thrown herself under a train in February after being bullied.

Duffy subsequently posted messages on a remembrance page set up by Miss MacBryde's friends.

In one of the posts he called the teenager a slut. He also posted a video on YouTube, entitled Tasha the Tank Engine, showing the children's character Thomas the Tank Engine with Miss MacBryde's face.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

OK going a bit off topic.

I've been an employer and an employee. I've been a worker and a manager. In all those jobs I've used my first name. Anything else would be, well, weird frankly. To me it's never been a 'us' and 'them' thingy. We're all part of a team with different tasks to perform. Can't manage without workers. Can't work without management.

Mind you I did quite like being the boss.

Well, you do the hiring and the firing.

For me first names are for your friends and families, and after that your equals.

I'd prefer to keep the man (or woman) who holds my livelyhood in their hands at a greater remove, especially if I have good reason to dislike him/her.

Its a form of dissassociation.

[gaelic cowboy]

I think the "common man" still had manners, he still put on his Sunday best to go to Church, still open doors for women, still said "sir" to his boss.

I doubt that to be honest man I would say manners were developed only after we had the time to keep them and the money to sustain them.

After all the manners/customs of the lower classes have never been held up by the quality have they, after all we wouldnt have had all those 19/20th century movements to reform the bottom rungs.

Last Christmas I did a stint for Sainsbury's on the shop floor, and the most irritating thing was that everyone was a "colleague" from the manager to the 16yr old checkout girl. That was risible, because it denied the poor bastards at the bottom, me included, the right to define ourselves by our work, instead we had to be part of some "equal but not equal" collective.

For me this is Meitheal and it's been around in one form or another since hunter gather times obviously.

Manners are not reserved to a social class, but they are about managing social situations, and they require people to have an identifiable station. Classlessness, or rather the lie of classlessness, is what destroyed manners in Britain.

This does not square for me at all at all, surely manners are about giving you a set of rules for handling any situation so if either party had no info on the "station" of the other then it passes off safely.

[InsaneApache]

You're right.

You may call me Mr. InsaneApache from now on.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Cecil, I quite liked your post. A thoughtful quotation and quite on point.

Manners?

Manners ARE civilization. The rest is food as fuel, urinating to mark territory and whelping the next set links in the genetic chain.

I LOATHE the degredation of manners begun in the 1960s by my parents younger kin and continued since. Why in heavens name did we have to get rid of good sportsmanship when it became sportspersonship? There was no need to get rid of please or thank you in order to have a sexual revolution.

Ultimately, manners are enlightened self interest.

[Noncommunist]

Cecil, I quite liked your post. A thoughtful quotation and quite on point.

Manners?

Manners ARE civilization. The rest is food as fuel, urinating to mark territory and whelping the next set links in the genetic chain.

I LOATHE the degredation of manners begun in the 1960s by my parents younger kin and continued since. Why in heavens name did we have to get rid of good sportsmanship when it became sportspersonship? There was no need to get rid of please or thank you in order to have a sexual revolution.

Ultimately, manners are enlightened self interest.

But wouldn't it simply be a change in manners than a "degradation"? After all, there are thousands of cultures, all with their form of manners and we'd simply be going from one set of manners to another.

[Furunculus]

turns out we have perfectly good mechanisms for curbing antisocial behaviour without resorting to creating victim groups:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-Facebook.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malicio...tions_Act_1988

incitement to "x" hatred laws are still cretinous.

[Strike For The South]

But wouldn't it simply be a change in manners than a "degradation"? After all, there are thousands of cultures, all with their form of manners and we'd simply be going from one set of manners to another.

I have to disagree.

Manners are more than just benign social nicities that are thrust upon us. They are important social tools that teach empathy,compassion, and patience

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Relevant to bits of the thread is the sentencing of an interenet troll (who looks exactly like what one would expect an internet troll to look like, by the way ), one of the most read stories on BBC today.

He deserves that sentence

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ultimately, manners are enlightened self interest.

I prefer just to think of it as enlightened.

[Crazed Rabbit]

turns out we have perfectly good mechanisms for curbing antisocial behaviour without resorting to creating victim groups:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-Facebook.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malicio...tions_Act_1988

incitement to "x" hatred laws are still cretinous.

The death of free speech continues.

CR

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The death of free speech continues.

CR

How can death continue?

[Catiline]

The death of free speech continues.

CR

It's not the death of free speech. it's the punishment of a moron for some particularly disgusting behaviour. It's like pissing on war memorials and showing children zoo porn. These things aren't something that should be protected because people can't exercise a modicum of personal responsibility and which deserve to have consequences if some one is enough of a cretin to do them.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The death of free speech continues.

CR

A bit different. You might as well bemoan the "death of lynching".

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

For me this is Meitheal and it's been around in one form or another since hunter gather times obviously.

That would be when we did the bailing and everyone came to help, and my mum gave them tea. Not when I went to work for a multi-national corporation as a wage-slave.

This does not square for me at all at all, surely manners are about giving you a set of rules for handling any situation so if either party had no info on the "station" of the other then it passes off safely.

Part of manners is dressing appropriate to your station, making yourself identifiable within the system.

You're right.

You may call me Mr. InsaneApache from now on.

Yes Boss.