Civil War in Libya

[Fragony]

What I meant was: when it came to food redistribution NSB types were last on the list. However, purposefully/deliberately letting them starve to death outright is different.

Is if there is enough food. It's a black page in our history untreated. Before the war the NSB was just a political party and workers movement, bugger for you if you signed up

[Fragony]

This sounds like your wierd idea that the Dutch Royal Family was put on the throne by Napoleon.

After Napoleon, it's a fact, we were a repubublic and doing fine. We are also doing fine with these parasites who have as much blue blood as the cheese royale, they are frauds. We aren't doing fine because of them. Current majesty is shrewd and most of all ruthless. William the Fast (crownprinz) is really really dumb. It will end

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

After Napoleon, it's a fact, we were a repubublic and doing fine. We are also doing fine with these parasites who have as much blue blood as the cheese royale, they are frauds. We aren't doing fine because of them. Current majesty is shrewd and most of all ruthless. William the Fast (crownprinz) is really really dumb. It will end

The Prince of Orange managed to get the other Provinces to name him King, he did it without a war. He was de-facto King anyway, so I say good on him for making it official.

[Fragony]

The Prince of Orange managed to get the other Provinces to name him King, he did it without a war. He was de-facto King anyway, so I say good on him for making it official.

The last heir of William of Orange broke his neck 200 years ago when his horse tripped over a molehole. Current majesty refuses to take DNA tests, even the glasses are taken after she drinked from them. Us being a monarchy is a completely artificial creation of England and France at the peace of 1848, we had no choice. Before that we were a repubic.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Netherlands have been “kingdom” from 1806-1810, then on from 1812-1848 when it became a “constitutional monarchy” but with power firmly in the hands of parliament.
The constitution of 1848 is largely based on the 1798 one, Thorbecke admitted to putting a thin veneer of monarchy on top of that one as it were...

[Fragony]

Netherlands have been ?kingdom? from 1806-1810, then on from 1812-1848 when it became a ?constitutional monarchy? but with power firmly in the hands of parliament.
The constitution of 1848 is largely based on the 1798 one, Thorbecke admitted to putting a thin veneer of monarchy on top of that one as it were...

Our reversed political evolution, surely you as a D66 voter you must want this family out of the government. The power she has must be taken from her no? They are mobsters, the locals dread the vist of a representive of the royal family, Beatrix van Amsberg Lippe-Biesterfet feels she's above paying, screw her and her stupid son with his juntawhore

[Banquo's Ghost]

Gentleman, fascinating though Dutch politics and history may be, this is a thread about Libya.

Please return to topic.

Thank you kindly.

[Fragony]

Gentleman, fascinating though Dutch politics and history may be, this is a thread about Libya.

Please return to topic.

Thank you kindly.

Well it kinda is, we lost a chopper because princess Mabel van Bruinsma tot Amsberg is very close to Ghaddafi's son and had to be evecuated from Libya which didn't go all that well. Dutch royal family have been arming the regime for years

[Papewaio]

Was arming Libya illegal?...seems there might be American and British intelligence agencies helping Gadaffi... I think they preferred him over a new terrorist... better the devil you know.

I'm pretty sure the US was trying to get Gadaffi to swap all his long range Scuds for short range (US if possible) missiles... can't beat him, try and chip away at their power and make a profit out of the bargin too... possibly one of the cases of smarter realpolitek around.

[Montmorency]

This doesn't seem particularly significant.

The ban on U.S. military exports to Libya officially ended on June 30, 2006, but the possibility of military exports to Libya remained a controversial subject for many policymakers in the United States, and little was done to establish significant military ties. Rather, in the time frame before the 2011 uprising, the Obama Administration only requested $250,000 in Foreign Military Financing and $350,000 for IMET for Libya in FY2011. This approach indicated that only the most tentative and limited military cooperation was moving forward, and all cooperation was discontinued following the anti-Qadhafi uprising and the imposition of a UN-sponsored “No-Fly Zone” (NFZ) over Libya. It is doubtful that the Libyan rebels of the Transitional National Council (TNC) will resent previous U.S. ties to the Qadhafi regime since they were so shallow and occurred for only a brief period of time.

[rory_20_uk]

Was arming Libya illegal?...seems there might be American and British intelligence agencies helping Gadaffi... I think they preferred him over a new terrorist... better the devil you know.

I'm pretty sure the US was trying to get Gadaffi to swap all his long range Scuds for short range (US if possible) missiles... can't beat him, try and chip away at their power and make a profit out of the bargin too... possibly one of the cases of smarter realpolitek around.

I am so pleased that MI6 does what is best for the UK. The enemy of my enemy is someone to deal with at a later date.

[Fragony]

edit, wrong

[Fluvius Camillus]

Ceasefire has ended today:

Both Bani Walid and Sirte besiegers are meeting heavy resistance from loyalists.

Also the NTC has sent a squad of 200 commando's to capture Khaddafi and they believe they know where he resides.

~Fluvius

[ICantSpellDawg]

Who here is ready for Syria?

[Viking]

There is no war in Syria. Intervening in Syria is a trickier business, since we can't just drop bombs.

[Viking]

Finally a more sober piece on what's left of Libyan tribalism:

Libyans, diplomats and political analysts say this effort may be pushing at an open door. The country's scores of tribes carry weight in Libyan society, but less so in its politics, an activity dominated by an urban elite more attuned to provincial roots than blood relations.

Unlike in Yemen or Iraq, tribal leaders in Libya tend not to be household names, in part because Gaddafi worked assiduously over decades, like the Italian colonialists of the early 20th century, to sap their power by playing off one against the other.

But extended families and clans - smaller units than tribes -- have a big role in arbitrating property and business disputes, in career advancement and in mediating compensation demands arising, for example, from deaths or injuries in traffic accidents.

[...]

"Libya is an urban society. And for young people, the whole tribal thing doesn't compute," said Libyan political scientist Mansour El-Kikhia.

"The NTC has been put together on the basis of professional expertise rather than family. And even when fellow rebels have criticized it, they've done so on the ground of professional failings rather than on other criteria."

Very few towns in Libya are populated solely by one tribe, even if some are identified with one community. In Gaddafi's hometown Sirte, for example, his Gaddadfa community predominates.

A Tripoli businessman said his family didn't rely routinely on its tribe to get by in life.

"We get our services normally," said the businessman, who declined to be identified as he considered the matter sensitive. "The young generation don't even know about tribes. (A focus on tribes) is something that Gaddafi put in us."

[...]

The defection announced in August of Gaddafi's former right hand man, Abdel Salam Jalloud, a Magarha notable, helped carry a significant number of Magarha into the NTC camp, Libyans say.

Another pro-Gaddafi faction influenced by Gaddafi's security chief, Abdullah Senussi, remains loyal to Gaddafi.

Members of the Gaddadfa, and even some from his subclan, the Gahous, have deserted him.

Barrani Ashkal, an important player in the fall of Tripoli, is a Gaddadfa and a blood relative of Gaddafi's. His defection, as deputy head of military intelligence, ensured that a large number of Gaddafi soldiers were kept out of the battle.

[Prince Cobra]

Who here is ready for Syria?

You are joking, aren't you?

[Fragony]

You are joking, aren't you?

awwwwwwwww they aren't really nice either, mother went to collect body of her son, but also stumbled on her daughter, beheaded, arms missing, and probably skinned alive. That's just mean imho.

We got to $ave them it i$$ a $$$uch a noble cau$$$$e

[Montmorency]

Are you implying that we should round up the Syrian people and melt them down into gold?

[Fragony]

Are you implying that we should round up the Syrian people and melt them down into gold?

I am suggesting that what is being done in Libya is plunder. More of this and I'm going to join my friendly local RAF faction or Al Quaida.

[Montmorency]

Plunder, huh? For the oil, of course...

[Fragony]

Plunder, huh? For the oil, of course...

Of course it has nothing to do with the Gadaffi wanting to be payed in dinars and gold instead of euro's and dollars. Don't we all love Lybians anyway we got to save these civilians

40.000 deaths, some really have to put their priorities straight

[Fragony]

Kewl: Tawergha, a ghost town. Can anybody explain to me what happened to the +/- 20.000 black immigrants who lived there, I mean they are all gone

[Adrian II]

Kewl: Tawergha, a ghost town. Can anybody explain to me what happened to the +/- 20.000 black immigrants who lived there, I mean they are all gone

There have been quite a few reports about Tawergha in English language papers. Jesse Jackson has demanded an international investigation after this report in the WSJ.

AII

[rvg]

In Libya we had a choice: to do nothing or to do something. Either option meant that a whole bunch of people was gonna get killed. Gaddafi was the devil we knew but at the same time getting rid of him opened up a chance for Libya to become free and democratic. It's up to them to take that chance, but I think that giving them the opportunity for freedom is worth the lives lost. Yes, their treatment of Blacks is barbaric, but had we not intervened Gaddafi would have massacred half of Benghazi.

[rory_20_uk]

I never knew I voted for my taxes to be spent on exporting "democracy" to other countries. I never knew I lived in a Utopia where things were so good that there was spare money to spend on others - and not in an efficient way that saves the most people (e.g. extending a vaccine plan or providing clean water) no - dropping bombs on one lot against another. The next fight might start - hopefully only with words - when the disparate parts fight for power. What is done if there is a new dictator in some form or other? If elections are rigged? If a minority are scapegoated?

Bad things happen every day all over the place. That does not mean that the UK has any place getting involved unless it's within its own borders.

America borrows 40% of the money it spends. They have even less reason to go kicking hornet's nests.

The concept of "Make the world British" ended something like 100 or more years ago.

[Subotan]

£1 billion for a new Arab democracy and 12 million Arabs who support NATO is a bargain.

[Fragony]

£1 billion for a new Arab democracy and 12 million Arabs who support NATO is a bargain.

Kidding me. Libya was one of the most socially advanced muslim nations if not the most advanced, we are helping the radicals and a lot of them aren't even Libyan. 60.000 dead estimated by now, infrastructure and whole towns destroyed, gee thx a lot

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Kidding me. Libya was one of the most socially advanced muslim nations if not the most advanced, we are helping the radicals and a lot of them aren't even Libyan. 60.000 dead estimated by now, infrastructure and whole towns destroyed, gee thx a lot

Rubbish, the head of the NTC is a Judge, and a secular one as well, at this point there are very few radicals in the Libyan opposition, proportionally speaking, because of the broad nature of the uprising, teachers, students, office workers, even the goalie for the national football team.

If all the God-talk bothers you I suggest you take a look at the speached made by the West during WWII, on all sides.

What we understand as "Secularism" today is a mostly post-war movement, and we shouldn't be suspicious simply because a group of people are religious, or more religious than us.

[Fragony]

'Rubbish, the head of the NTC is a Judge, and a secular one as well, at this point there are very few radicals in the Libyan opposition, proportionally speaking, because of the broad nature of the uprising, teachers, students, office workers, even the goalie for the national football team.'

Who can shoot?