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  1. #1
    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Occupy Wall Street

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Look, I don't much sympathize with hippie drum circles, but they're reacting to a real problem. The financial sector is overpaid, overgrown and out of control. They privatize profits and socialize losses, as the bailout showed. It's almost a textbook-perfect example of a rigged game. The rest of us work hard and play by the rules; not so the securities folks.

    Again, I hypothesize that the average investment banker or stock broker is more parasitic and destroys more wealth than a welfare mother. (Some numbers: Annual cost of all means-tested entitlements (Medicaid, food stamps, family support assistance (AFDC), supplemental security income (SSI), child nutrition programs, refundable portions of earned income tax credits (EITC and HITC) and child tax credit, welfare contingency fund, child care entitlement to States, temporary assistance to needy families, foster care and adoption assistance, State children's health insurance and veterans pensions) is around $354.3 billion; estimates for true cost of financial bailout vary, but $4.6 trillion seems to be a not-unrealistic number.)

    Not to mention this absurd and counter-factual meme that the financial crisis was created in Washington rather than Wall Street. Read up.

    Between 2004 and 2006, when subprime lending was exploding, Fannie and Freddie went from holding a high of 48 percent of the subprime loans that were sold into the secondary market to holding about 24 percent, according to data from Inside Mortgage Finance, a specialty publication. One reason is that Fannie and Freddie were subject to tougher standards than many of the unregulated players in the private sector who weakened lending standards, most of whom have gone bankrupt or are now in deep trouble.

    During those same explosive three years, private investment banks — not Fannie and Freddie — dominated the mortgage loans that were packaged and sold into the secondary mortgage market. In 2005 and 2006, the private sector securitized almost two thirds of all U.S. mortgages, supplanting Fannie and Freddie, according to a number of specialty publications that track this data.

    Fueled by low interest rates and cheap credit, home prices between 2001 and 2007 galloped beyond anything ever seen, and that fueled demand for mortgage-backed securities, the technical term for mortgages that are sold to a company, usually an investment bank, which then pools and sells them into the secondary mortgage market.

    About 70 percent of all U.S. mortgages are in this secondary mortgage market, according to the Federal Reserve.

    Conservative critics also blame the subprime lending mess on the Community Reinvestment Act, a 31-year-old law aimed at freeing credit for underserved neighborhoods.

    Congress created the CRA in 1977 to reverse years of redlining and other restrictive banking practices that locked the poor, and especially minorities, out of homeownership and the tax breaks and wealth creation it affords. The CRA requires federally regulated and insured financial institutions to show that they're lending and investing in their communities.

    Conservative columnist Charles Krauthammer wrote recently that while the goal of the CRA was admirable, "it led to tremendous pressure on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac — who in turn pressured banks and other lenders — to extend mortgages to people who were borrowing over their heads. That's called subprime lending. It lies at the root of our current calamity."

    Fannie and Freddie, however, didn't pressure lenders to sell them more loans; they struggled to keep pace with their private sector competitors. In fact, their regulator, the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight, imposed new restrictions in 2006 that led to Fannie and Freddie losing even more market share in the booming subprime market.

    What's more, only commercial banks and thrifts must follow CRA rules. The investment banks don't, nor did the now-bankrupt non-bank lenders such as New Century Financial Corp. and Ameriquest that underwrote most of the subprime loans.

    These private non-bank lenders enjoyed a regulatory gap, allowing them to be regulated by 50 different state banking supervisors instead of the federal government. And mortgage brokers, who also weren't subject to federal regulation or the CRA, originated most of the subprime loans.


    that graph is literally the most worthless piece of drivel ive ever seen

    also these people are protesting the evil 1% and how they have all the wealth. They just look like ignorant buffons.

    also i live in the city and some of the kids at my school are there (shocker). The ultimate irony is their parents are likely part of that evil 1%

  2. #2
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Occupy Wall Street

    Well it's not *that* bad but teasing out a single occupation and comparing it to a group of occupations is an attempt at manipulation.

    Another shock value graph.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
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    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
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  3. #3
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Occupy Wall Street

    Kanye showed up in all his bling, the credibility of the protestors has just skyrocketed. I expect Paris Hilton next.
    Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!

  4. #4
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Occupy Wall Street

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion1 View Post
    also these people are protesting the evil 1% and how they have all the wealth.
    Doubtless some of them are exactly that stupid. However, I don't think their little movement would gain any traction at all if it were merely "eat the rich." See earlier in the thread, comments by me about "legitimate complaints" and a very well-written article reposted by Sasaki Kojiro. As unlikeable as the protesters may be, they're not reacting to a vacuum.

    -edit-

    A more broad-reaching series of charts can be found here.

    Also, further smackdown of the idea that the Federales were the primary movers/causal agents of the mortgage meltdown can be found here and (in less detailed form) here.

    The GSEs did generate large losses, but their bad investments in housing loans followed rather than led the crisis; most of those investments involved purchases or guarantees made well after the subprime and housing bubbles had been expanded by private loans and were almost about to burst.

    Even then, the GSEs’ overall purchases and guarantees were much less risky than Wall Street’s: their default rates were one fourth to one fifth those of Wall Street and other private financial firms, a fact not made clear by the authors. A further review of other literature shows that Clinton’s goals to increase “affordable lending” had little to do with the risks the GSEs took. The FCIC, for example, argued that in several years these goals were largely met by the GSEs’ standard loans with traditional down payments. [...]

    As noted, the GSEs bought very few subprimes in the 1990s. But it might especially surprise the inexpert reader to know that the GSEs did not own almost half of the “toxic mortgages” written by private companies, a remarkable exaggeration on the part of the authors. As usual, no source for the estimate is given, but it is likely based on the analysis of Pinto, who was a former Fannie official and is a colleague of Wallison’s at the American Enterprise Institute. To make the claim, Pinto radically redefined what qualified a mortgage to be subprime or an Alt-A, for which mortgage-holders were often not required to document their income, rejecting the conventional and widely accepted definitions. In his analysis, almost any mortgage held by Fannie and Freddie with modest above-average risk was categorized, to use Morgenson and Rosner’s term, as “toxic.”

    If so, one would presume the delinquency rates suffered by the GSEs during the crisis would have been very high. But David Min, an analyst with the Center for American Progress, shows that the after-crisis delinquency rates on the large additional portion of GSE mortgages that Pinto claimed were high risk, and that was termed “toxic” by Morgenson and Rosner, was roughly 10 percent, far lower than the 25 to 30 percent default rate of true subprimes. In fact, the rate of delinquencies for all GSE securities in 2004 was 4.3 percent, compared to a delinquency rate in private industry of 15.1 percent of mortgages. In 2005, the GSE rate was 7.8 percent compared to 28.7 percent, and in 2006 and 2007, the rates reached 13.2 and 14.9 percent in the GSEs and 45.1 and 42.3 percent in the private market.

    Last edited by Lemur; 10-14-2011 at 16:03.

  5. #5
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Occupy Wall Street

    Just for humor: First you say it's not about "eat the rich" then you link to an article showing exactly that.

    The start of the article isn't very promising. Being "unable to focus their complaints" reminds me of when Democrats talk about focusing, or effectively communicating their "message." As if they somehow worded their thoughts better people would agree with them. DC buzzwords.

    Those are nice, and exhaustive graphs, but all their only purpose is to point fingers at corporations when the real problems consist of things like uncertainty and poor political leadership. "The new normal" isn't. This is more like "what's old is new again."

    Does the article even take Europe's problems into account? Not Europe as a whole but the ongoing financial instability caused by certain countries.

    So, to sum up: There are a lot of factors influencing our current problems. What you are seeing, and what people are reacting to, are the symptoms, which are easy to see and point a finger at. They're missing the point and that's why I don't respect them.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  6. #6
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Occupy Wall Street

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    [W]hat people are reacting to, are the symptoms, which are easy to see and point a finger at. They're missing the point and that's why I don't respect them.
    In other words:


  7. #7
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Occupy Wall Street

    You know what REALLY makes me mad?

    This:


    THAT'S what we should protest!
    Last edited by Beskar; 10-15-2011 at 22:59. Reason: Edited picture


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



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