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  1. #1
    Infinite Jest Member easytarget's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why are AI generals so stupid?

    It's rather difficult to program AI to handle battles well because the battlefield is so fluid. If you consider what AI has challenges with, it's almost always modelling that entails a lot of variables, weather, economics, just too much going on. Given a more controlled setting, say a chessboard, it will mop the floor with you.

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    Member Member Jarmam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why are AI generals so stupid?

    Its not that bad. While the battlefield AI isnt exactly stellar it will at least replace the general's scouting role with another cavalry unit as soon as its available and when faced with enemy matchlock cores my experience is that the general hides behind his lines until the teppo are engaged or can only get 1 shot off if he charges. Sure, he might die from that one shot... but its better than constipating on your toilet and having the world think a ninja stabbed you in the arse from your toilet drain.

    The AI is smarter than we think...

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    Member Member Sp4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why are AI generals so stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by easytarget View Post
    It's rather difficult to program AI to handle battles well because the battlefield is so fluid. If you consider what AI has challenges with, it's almost always modelling that entails a lot of variables, weather, economics, just too much going on. Given a more controlled setting, say a chessboard, it will mop the floor with you.
    Yeah because for more controlled settings, the AI can "think" ahead to the point where everything you do is met with the perfect counter. On this game, it feels like the AI isn't even "trying". They just follow the same pattern for just about every battle, wether my army consists of 2000 ashigaru or 1000 samurai with cavalary support, spears, archers and matchlocks or wether they are sieging or attacking me on the open field.

    To make the game harder, the AI isn't made smarter, it is just given bonuses and your unit's stats are reduced. I dunno since when companies make their games 'harder' that way but I find it extremely lame and annoying.
    Last edited by Sp4; 11-19-2011 at 16:37.

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    Infinite Jest Member easytarget's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why are AI generals so stupid?

    True enough, it's a common problem in game design, in fact there was another thread here someone started discussing (as I recall) games that had effective harder settings.

    The solution, and this is me speaking from no knowledge of how this works, would perhaps be to play back into an AI's strength by pre-setting tactics based on watching hundreds or even thousands of human vs human matches (not like CA couldn't collect the data). The patterns of engagement aren't infinite, or even close to it, that would then be the tactics you would program to, making it a series of steps the AI follows. And of course it would be even better if they could figure out a way to tie back results to modifications in subsequent battles the AI fought, course I think that would be rather hard. So the brute force approach would be the first place to start.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Why are AI generals so stupid?

    The problem is that game designers/publishers are generic liars on this subject. They call their progams and algorithms 'Artificial Intelligence' when there is no intelligence in them. They do not learn, they cannot 'think' strategically. They only do what their pre-programmed number crunching dictates (including the latitude of randomness they are programmed with). What everyone in the gaming industry calls AI is NOT. Don't perpetuate the myth.

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    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why are AI generals so stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by feelotraveller View Post
    The problem is that game designers/publishers are generic liars on this subject.
    The problem is that intelligence and thought processes are difficult concepts to define let alone attempt to translate into programming. Calling game designers "liars" is rather harsh. If you contest their use of the term "artificial intelligence", what would you propose they call it?
    This space intentionally left blank

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    Member Member Sp4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why are AI generals so stupid?

    Thought I'd clarify here =p I don't mean the entire AI army... a lot of the stuff they do "makes sense". I am talking about the general unit in particular, which they seem to treat as a glorified unit of light cavalary.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why are AI generals so stupid?

    TW has long had a problem with suicidal generals. It was one of the, relatively few, problems with the original STW AI. If you were unlucky, you could end up fighting an entirely ronin Japan, the factions proper sacrificed their generals so frequently. However, I confess I did not notice the problem with STW2. It seems to use the general unit, as in ETW and NTW, for behind the lines support rather than as a combat unit.

    If the AI general is just exposing himself to your fire, you could always refrain from shooting at him. (A British artillery captain at Waterloo observed Napoleon parading in front of his troops across the ridge and asked Wellington if he could take a shot at the enemy general; Wellington was aghast and refused permission[1]). It's more of an issue if - as in the original STW - the general charges into your lines.


    [1]By contrast, in the ancient period, trying to take out the enemy general and decapitate their army was a common battle tactic.
    Last edited by econ21; 11-20-2011 at 13:04.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Why are AI generals so stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregoshi View Post
    The problem is that intelligence and thought processes are difficult concepts to define let alone attempt to translate into programming. Calling game designers "liars" is rather harsh. If you contest their use of the term "artificial intelligence", what would you propose they call it?
    Yes intelligence is hard to define - self awareness, creativity, learning... there are many possible characterisations I agree. It is harsh to call them liars but accurate. Take an example from S2TW - if I was playing my 4 year old nephew, it might take him a while, but on the 10th siege (or maybe more) he would resist lining his archers up to face my general and ignoring the main body of my army. (Lucky I don't play him at platform games, he would whip my b***.) The 'computer program' (my suggestion because that is what it is) will never learn this and, outside of reprogramming intervention, will fall for the same mistake endlessly. An artificial intelligence worth its name would function 'as if' it was human. It would 'learn' = reprogram itself. Sadly the game designers know this and wish to perpetuate the myth that you are somehow playing something intelligent rather than an inflexible coding.

    The sad thing is that eventually we all start to think that the computer program is really an artificial intelligence because it is repeated endlessly. Yes it is a complex and remarkable piece of code but in the end it is no different from any unthinking mechanical contraption. Would you want to call a mouse trap intelligent?

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    Infinite Jest Member easytarget's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why are AI generals so stupid?

    Feelotraveller,

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but you do realize you're not exactly making an earth shattering revelation here right? You act incensed as if you were somehow duped into buying a game with big bold letters on the box falsely proclaiming the game inside has human like AI.

    The next thing you'll reveal in full outrage will no doubt be the epiphany that most games feature character and plot development so infantile in comparison to other more developed mediums like literature or cinema that we should all gather round and have ourselves an ole style game bonfire and torch the lot.

    But before we consider anything so drastic, here are some possible alternatives to belaboring your point in this thread any further:

    1. check the box in S2 that says drop in (next thing you know a human like me will do just that, and drop in to replace the AI)
    2. play chess, the "AI" will be more than happy to curb stomp you till the cows come home
    3. or maybe just stick to MP style games in general, thereby avoiding the dumb AI altogether

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