Capo di Tutti Capi IV [Concluded]

[Earthling]

So LazyMcCrow is the serial killer? Thanks for leaving him out, Ironside I'm sure appreciates that ;)

DaveShack could count as starting mafia too, that's definitely unknown on the town side. You obviously never even addressed this issue with the doctors, just lied and said this would work when it's not even likely it will.

Again, as it's questionable if there were even 50-60+ original mafiosi/wiseguys, and certainly not seventy, just 5 or 6 is above the cutoff and the doctors can't win.

[Askthepizzaguy]

You guys are conveniently ignoring the part where it says "original mafiosi or wiseguys", while you blow up the other words to size 7.


So, when reason fails, increase font size.... duly noted, but it makes the thread look like dookie.

[Askthepizzaguy]

So LazyMcCrow is the serial killer? Thanks for leaving him out, Ironside I'm sure appreciates that ;)

Ironside has deduced who he was for about two phases now...

DaveShack could count as starting mafia too, that's definitely unknown on the town side.

AFAIK he's an individualist role with all his win conditions completed care of Askthepizzaguy being lynched twice and Fyremarble once.

You obviously never even addressed this issue with the doctors, just lied and said this would work when it's not even likely it will.

We went over this a loooooong time ago. There are not 6 originals remaining, so you're beyond overreacting.

let's begin with the families alone. That's 3 per family, times 5, means 15. Fifteen mafiosi alone. Now count up the dead wiseguys. Count up the gangsters that were once wiseguy. How many were there? Lots.

Here, let me help you.

[Earthling]

No one is ignoring that. Why don't you definitely answer if you can and really intended to see this through for those town doctors - how many original mafiosi and wiseguys were there, and how many are left.

The answer to the first part is probably not more than 60, might even be less than 50. To the second, 4 already seem entirely accounted for, easily possible there's a fifth or sixth.

10% means fewer than 5-6 of the original mafia roles or wiseguys can survive for the doctors to win, and by your uncertain and untrustworthy count there already seem to be at least that many. They need to get rid of some of these people to win in any way, no matter what you tell them it doesn't change what's in the Role PMs.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I like this wall better, it makes the pain go away.

Be right back with your count, senor Earth.

[Visor]

You do realise it says wiseguys OR mafia?

[Earthling]

Of course, the point that needs to stay is none of this changes the fact that there are enough votes to outright lynch Don Clemenza today.

The surviving town doctors are then in better shape to achieve victory no matter what with another original wiseguy gone and maybe some other one likely to die for the need of a sanctioned kill. Even if Renata and the Corleone achieving victory in one big family is the follow up, they can know they will personally win in that scenario.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Highlighting known starting mafiosi or wiseguys.

Killed = 75: Captain Black Adder [townie] (n1), Pharoah [townie] (n2), Moros [luca] (n2), ELITEWARMAN8GINGYBREADMENMILK [townie] (n2), TinCow [detective] (n3), Xenoneb [townie] (n3), El Barto [detective] (n3), Arjos [FBI chief] (n3), Ameranth [wiseguy] (n4), Lord Winter [wiseguy] (n4), Suburban Plankton [detective] (n5), slysnake [townie] (n5), Lord Brennus [townie] (n5), Bow-wow-wow [townie] (n5), ByzantineKnight [townie] (n6), Kagemusha [serial killer] (n6), Tratorix [FBI] (n6), Raskolnikov [wiseguy] (n6), Nictel [wiseguy] (n6), J.D. [wiseguy] (n6), Visorslash [communist leader] (n7), Cecil XIX [townie] (n7), Drunk Clown [luca] (n7), Johnhughthom [wiseguy] (n7), Jolt [Made] (n7), Romanic [wiseguy] (n7), fubbleskag [doctor] (n8), Ibn-Khaldun [townie] (n8), Memnon [townie] (n8), robbiecon [townie] (n8), Andres [Special Agent] (n8), Camikaze [Made] (n8), Frozen in Ice [wiseguy] (n8), woad&fangs [townie] (n9), Zack [townie] (n9), Zim [Luca] (n9), Choxorn [townie] (n9), dcmort93 [townie] (n9), Diamondeye [wiseguy] (n10),
AggonyKing [townie] (n10), God Emperor [made] (n10), Skotsko [made] (n10), slash and earn [townie] (n10), thefluffyone93 [rogue detective] (n10), Craterus [townie] (n11), Peasant Phill [Don] (n11), Sasaki [Don] (n11), ULC [townie] (n11), Khazaar [townie] (n12), Johhog [Wiseguy] (n12), qlyphz [townie] (n12), Lewwyn [made] (n13), Monk [townie] (n13), Yaropolk [townie] (n13), Cahoma [Luca] (n14), guiri [townie] (n14), Psychonaut [detective] (n14), Scienter [Made] (n14), B_Ray [townie] (n16), gnarlycharlie [Don] (n16), Sigurd [communist recruit] (n16), Sprig [Made] (n16), Clitsome [communist] (n17), fyremarble [don] (n17), gibsonsg91921 [luca] (n17), Winston Hughes [made] (n17), Backwards Logic [Made] (n18), Believer [FBI] (n18), GamezRule [don] (n18), kennigit [Made] (n18), Secura [rogue] (n18), Bsmith (n19), Jarema (n19), Neri (n19), Tiaexz (n19), White eyes (n19), Xehh II (n19)


****NOTE: SECURA WAS STARTING WISEGAL.

Lynched = 19: Earthling [townie] (d2), a completely inoffensive name [townie] (d3), Subotan [wiseguy] (d3), Major Robert Dump [wiseguy] (d4), Ishmael [communist] (d5), Montmorency [wiseguy] (d6), landlubber [Made] (d8), Captain Blackadder [townie] (d9), Riedquat [townie] (d10), Edse [surgeon] (d11), Populus Romanus [surgeon] (d12), Crazed Rabbit [made] (d13), Sturmhauke (d15) [townie], The Stranger (d15) [rogue], BillMC [detective] (d16), Erebus (d17) [townie], shlin28 [townie] (d18), Scottishranger (d19)

Wogged = 5: bestrfcplayer (n6), cpdwane [townie] (n4), Master Necromanver [Don] (n4), taillesskangaru [townie] (n4), Silver Jan (d16)

Plus classical hero, plus Renata, plus ATPG, plus Autolycus, plus Krill, and we didn't get any reads on Bestrfc or Silver Jan and other roles. Not all rogues/doctors began as townies. That's 46.... That puts us darned near 50.

50.... and 3 starting wiseguys alive, and Renata and ATPG are mutually exclusive, cannot survive the game together as Dons. Therefore, the count is FOUR.

10% of 46 is 4.6, and the final count will be 4. And there were more starting mafia/wiseguys than that.

Okay?



Breathe into a bag.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Of course, the point that needs to stay is none of this changes the fact that there are enough votes to outright lynch Don Clemenza today

Please, by all means, lynch me today and end the pain.

[Nightbringer]

so then...

unvote, vote:ironside
unselect, select Seon

[Earthling]

I counted a minimum of 60ish non-mafia starting roles, that's about the same on the count, though it's presuming in any case that we can really know the starting alignment of everyone, some of the dead-as-wiseguys like Diamondeye might not have started that way going the other way.

With 50 as the estimate the doctors have to be absolutely sure that only four original mafia/wiseguys roles will be alive. It's still a very dangerous situation for the town doctors to be in, because 5 surviving original scum could easily not do it for them, and the status of someone still alive could be wrong or just a lie because you want them to trust you and throw away their victory.

And again, None of this changes there are enough votes to simply lynch Don Clemenza today if non-Clemenzas bother to vote, and that will also make the townies at least much, much more safe and secure in your status for secondary victory-bumps.

[Askthepizzaguy]

DUDE.


Listen, I'm not going to let you screw this up for YOUR OWN SIDE.


The lawyer can not only spare us from the lynch, but also can choose a replacement person at will.

It's in the QTs which were UNDOUBTEDLY LEAKED TO THE TOWNIES BY NOW.

If the remaining townies break ranks then I'll have no choice but to lynch them, and that's really dumb because they already got their stinking WIN conditions.

Leave them aloooone.

[Askthepizzaguy]

That was that promotion on the third successful lynch protect.

If you wanted to save the game for the townies you shouldn't have tried to lynch Fyremarble. Dave's role was powerful enough before that, then you turned him into a supervillain.

[Earthling]

So Ironside achieves victory when you kill him today, just like Secura and the Stranger? They weren't even fully on the town side but the town would still want to help them out.

Sure, attempt the lynch on DaveShack then if that's the only valid option to hit a Clemenza right now, there will be another night either way.

A couple nights ago, the doctors had guaranteed losses with the number of scum alive if things had ended then and the Clemenza hadn't killed some of their own potential members. This was ignored or purposefully lied about to any doctors willing to go along, that they'd still get their victories bumped up. It is possible but still not a sure thing, that someone like Double A or Niklas or DaveShack didn't have a starting role that counts as scum and knocks down your victory, and someone lied or didn't know about that. Whereas if you take down some Clemenza you're guaranteed to win.

But again, anyone who is listening to him must know that pizza has been trying the whole time to prevent people from screwing up victory for folks like Secura or all those extinct mafia families (well, many would actually win too if the Corleone win instead of the Clemenza, though loyalty to dead allies seems mostly out on the mafia side)

[LazyMcCrow]

unvote, vote: Ironside
unselect, select: Seon

[Askthepizzaguy]

So Ironside achieves victory when you kill him today, just like Secura and the Stranger? They weren't even fully on the town side but the town would still want to help them out.

How badly does the town want to help out Ironside? We're about to find out.


Ironside, please lynch Death is yonder for me.


Ironside says he's absolutely a third party role. Okay, if that's the case I'd rather see the surgeon go down who keeps trying to block my sanctioned hit attempts, won't communicate, and won't even work with fellow Doctors to get them their protects.

Death is indeed yonder for someone. Bring me a surgeon, my rogue friend.

[classical_hero]

unvote; vote:Ironside

I'll allow ATPG to do the talking, since it seems to be futile to talk to Earthling. It does feel good to be one of the few starting wiseguys alive, I am just surprised that so many townies decided to go mafia when they could have don their best to do th exact opposite, so basically the town was screwed right from the start.

[Ironside]

Under protest, but nevertheless.

Unvote: Vote: DIY

Select: Seon

[Askthepizzaguy]

unvote; vote:Ironside

I'll allow ATPG to do the talking, since it seems to be futile to talk to Earthling. It does feel good to be one of the few starting wiseguys alive, I am just surprised that so many townies decided to go mafia when they could have don their best to do th exact opposite, so basically the town was screwed right from the start.

Oh yeah.

That said, all the doctors and potential rogues they had? Plus their starting agents/doctor/surgeon? Plus the FBI and FPD? If they had followed my promotion plan, and just not had me organizing it, they could have wiped the floor with the mafia.

EASILY.

It was a lack of will, that's all. Town had as much or more firepower than the last game, and the mafia had a very rough beginning. Town could have pasted them easily.

[Death is yonder]

How badly does the town want to help out Ironside? We're about to find out.


Ironside, please lynch Death is yonder for me.


Ironside says he's absolutely a third party role. Okay, if that's the case I'd rather see the surgeon go down who keeps trying to block my sanctioned hit attempts, won't communicate, and won't even work with fellow Doctors to get them their protects.

Death is indeed yonder for someone. Bring me a surgeon, my rogue friend.

I've been exceedingly busy. I admit that .org has not been on my mind, nor anyway near the top of my priority list, but if you want this poor 'ol doctor dead then hmmph can't say I didn't see it possibly coming down one time or another

Not to mention I'm conserving pms because I've repeatedly approached my limit and have little that I don't want gone.

Ironside, thank you for reciprocating what you could, I appreciate it but am sad that it has to come to this

and won't even work with fellow Doctors to get them their protects.

I have a lot of qualms with going against my role pm, thank you very much

Vote: Abstain
Select: Abstain

[Askthepizzaguy]

I've been exceedingly busy. I admit that .org has not been on my mind, nor anyway near the top of my priority list, but if you want to go back on me just for the sake of doing so, please don't hide behind a smoke screen and say "Hey DiY I want you dead, I lied, nothing personal mate". Although maybe the last part is always a lie in some form or another, but yeah, please do that.

I could quote you chatlogs from where I talked to Seon and he said you weren't interested in working with him to get those protects.

That helps you whether you win as town team or not; added victory level for free.

I have a lot of qualms with going against my role pm, thank you very much

There we go; it's not a betrayal if you're working actively for a town team victory instead of taking the compromise I offered. As is your prerogative to refuse, as is my prerogative to try to make you dead, being Mafia and all.

You think this is personal? That's silly. I've never had any personal issue with you, and we have a great rapport before this game. It's not personal, it's just business. I think that's in the Mafia Rules, seriously, anyone taking this personally shouldn't be playing.

[Death is yonder]

No I do not think this is personal, its more of a general comment rather than a directed accusation

I could quote you chatlogs from where I talked to Seon and he said you weren't interested in working with him to get those protects.

The question is from when

There we go; it's not a betrayal if you're working actively for a town team victory instead of taking the compromise I offered. As is your prerogative to refuse, as is my prerogative to try to make you dead, being Mafia and all.

The going against the role pm thing was mainly just puzzlement that NB wouldn't take the opportunity to possibly get a win for all the town last round, only so much one can work with the mafia

[Death is yonder]

Vote: Abstain
Select: Abstain

Previous voting has been invalidated by edited post.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The going against the role pm thing was mainly just puzzlement that NB wouldn't take the opportunity to possibly get a win for all the town last round, only so much one can work with the mafia

I'd like to stick up for NB here; not that I think you're attacking him, but questioning his decision.

If I were lynched yesterday, Niklas/Renata and the former Clemenza would have become a family together. It still would have been a mafia win.

NB was just not interested in joining the insurrection and its need to specifically deny Askthepizzaguy a win, otherwise changing very little about the outcome.

He saw it as not worthy of his participation, and given the outcome was the same for the team either way, but *I* was doing everything in my power to get him his needed protections, and Renata/the others were not, that made his choice pretty darned simple.


Listen, if the outcome is the exact same in either case, Askthepizzaguy the scum dying and mafia winning, or Chaotix the scum dying and the mafia winning, what difference does it make to Nightbringer?

A little thing like helping him achieve close victory instead of a draw is a legitimate move I can make to win his favor. He wasn't betraying the town there, the town was already sunk. Town was defeated a while back.


Granted, a little thing like having a close victory over a draw isn't that much of a difference to some, but I was making the effort. That mattered to NB, and given a win is a lot different from a draw, and a draw is a lot different from a loss, that slight difference meant the world to Nightbringer.

Let's face facts, I did more for Nightbringer than any other player in the game. Why would his loyalty be a surprise? I earned it.



Just defending him as a player. There was no town win that he just turned down.

It also means that the cross-alignment assistance I offered him was not only a legitimate tactic, but a game-winning one. It can be done. Thinking outside the mafia/town box there.

[Renata]

I'd like to stick up for NB here; not that I think you're attacking him, but questioning his decision.

If I were lynched yesterday, Niklas/Renata and the former Clemenza would have become a family together. It still would have been a mafia win.

NB was just not interested in joining the insurrection and its need to specifically deny Askthepizzaguy a win, otherwise changing very little about the outcome.

I object. The actual point was to get Renata a win or die trying, tyvm. At least from my perspective. And the "close defeat" criterion was in fact an issue for the town doctors (not sure whether it still is). If Neri hadn't died; if I hadn't made myself Don -- do the town doctors still have a shot? Probably not. You weren't going to kill off Krill, Neri, Diana, Auto, whoever -- just to help them out. Whereas I had to take out a few Clemenza or have no shot at all, and might as well target original wiseguys/mafia as anyone.

[Double A]

unvote, vote: Ironsideways

[Askthepizzaguy]

I object. The actual point was to get Renata a win or die trying, tyvm. At least from my perspective. And the "close defeat" criterion was in fact an issue for the town doctors (not sure whether it still is). If Neri hadn't died; if I hadn't made myself Don -- do the town doctors still have a shot? Probably not. You weren't going to kill off Krill, Neri, Diana, Auto, whoever -- just to help them out.

You have a point there. I had actually forgotten about said stipulations. Good on whoever to look it up. It's also moot now given only 4 will survive.

That said, a draw is still better than a defeat, really. In tournament play for chess, a draw is worth half a point and half a point can make all the difference.

I consider draws to be wins. You weren't beaten, so you win.



Need an example? How about the Cold War. Not blowing each other up? That's a win for everyone. Even if the other side is still standing. Maybe someone packs up and goes home.

[sturmhauke]

Can someone explain to me why that lawyer is still alive? We've known who he is for like half the game now.

[classical_hero]

Because ATPG would have had protection on him and plus it is pointless for any mafia to kill him, since he does not count against us. But you guys would never have been able to attack him nor get the required votes, unless you started out much earlier against the ATPG plan, but that never happened and many were actually helping him to achieve his goals, so it would be unlikely to get rid of him.

[Askthepizzaguy]

What's really going to burn your back hairs is that DaveShack had absolutely zero protection covering him for..... I don't even know. 6, 7, 8 rounds in a row? No idea. Everyone assumed he was protected, and that's why I didn't need to protect him. A vigilante strike or a mafia hit would have ended all hopes of me surviving anything, but nobody gave it a shot.

Worse, Dave forgot to cover anyone at all today. I've been vulnerable allllllll day long....

Phase ends: 1 hour 46 minutes.

He's done that on more than one occasion too.




I'm sorry, is this not helping? Sorry....