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Thread: Euro Area

  1. #991
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Voting populations are like children.

    Who would they prefer? The parent who gives them small toys but promises them that tomorrow is going to be taken care of, or the one who gets them really big toys using loans... and also tells them that tomorrow is going to be taken care of.

    In the UK there was a flood in the North. Some had house insurance that covered floods, others didn't. Those that didn't got give free money from the government. So, either you can pay insurance year after year, or not bother and complain if a flood happens and the Government will give you money.

    In the UK, cuts are being fought tooth and nail as every special interest group fights for their money, with no mature overview that this is required due to the hideous amount of borrowing that went on before. Of course spending less money on things will be worse but frankly that's just tough.

    Gordon Brown epitomised this "spend now, ask questions... never" mentality by calling every handout an "investment" - but never feeling the need to explain what the returns would be.

    Last edited by rory_20_uk; 11-20-2011 at 10:51.
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    Throne Room Caliph Senior Member phonicsmonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Voting populations are like children.

    Who would they prefer? The parent who gives them small toys but promises them that tomorrow is going to be taken care of, or the one who gets them really big toys using loans... and also tells them that tomorrow is going to be taken care of.

    In the UK there was a flood in the North. Some had house insurance that covered floods, others didn't. Those that didn't got give free money from the government. So, either you can pay insurance year after year, or not bother and complain if a flood happens and the Government will give you money.

    In the UK, cuts are being fought tooth and nail as every special interest group fights for their money, with no mature overview that this is required due to the hideous amount of borrowing that went on before. Of course spending less money on things will be worse but frankly that's just tough.

    Gordon Brown epitomised this "spend now, ask questions... never" mentality by calling every handout an "investment" - but never feeling the need to explain what the returns would be.

    Yes this is called moral hazard.

    In the aftermath of the crisis the Fed and developed world governments in general, in their bailouts, failed to discriminate between those who had been reckless and deserved to go under and those who were simply caught up in the storm and should be saved. Then, in an apparent attempt to deal with the issue of moral hazard, they recklessly allowed Lehman Brothers to fail (alone among the broker-dealers who were in the same mess together) pour l'encouragement des autres and the resulting uncertainty made the whole problem many times worse.

    Now the only clarity is that if you are big enough that your failing will threaten the whole financial system you will not be allowed to fail - a perverse incentive to grow bigger and more dangerous!
    Last edited by phonicsmonkey; 11-20-2011 at 13:41.
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  3. #993
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    Hello all! I would like some advise from the more economically minded ones of you amongst us.

    I was reading this article by the BBC which provides a very interesting picture of who owes what to who:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15748696

    If you click on the various countries, you can see who owes what to what.

    One very interesting tibbit I noticed was this - countries owe money between themselves and their counterpart

    So what I propose is this - Debt Cancellation

    Let's take the United Kingdom for example. America owes us more money than we owe them. However, under what I propose is that we basically do this sum:
    USA debt - UK debt = NewUSA Debt, Ukdebtless

    So using United Kingdom again, we sort of get a picture like this.

    United Kingdom
    Debts - Germany, Spain, Ireland
    Owed - America, Italy, Portugal
    Cancelled - Japan, France

    So now, the United Kingdom only owes debt to Spain, Germany and Ireland, whilst only America, Italy and Portugal owes to United Kingdom.

    Effectively, we start pulling all these strings away reducing it all to simply numbers.

    If politicians want to take that extra-step. They could attempt to use the Central European Bank as the debt-nexus. By doing this for example, lets say Germany owes America money (whilst UK owes Germany and America owes UK), they can eliminate the debt America owes UK in return to the debt the UK owes Germany.
    Edit: Double checking it, it seems America owes more money to everyone in Europe than the otherway around..

    Since all this debt gets eliminated, it means there is far less money being lost on "interest", which means all the economies can improve at home.
    what is the quality of the debt?

    example:

    french bank owns £200m of solid british debt british bank owns £200m of dodgy french debt

    why would the french government want to swap?

    now multiply that detailed and searching calculation by thousands!
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  4. #994
    Throne Room Caliph Senior Member phonicsmonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    I thought I might recommend some reading for those who are interested in these topics.

    "Crisis Economics" by Nouriel Roubini is a succinct examination of what went wrong and why.

    "This Time is Different" by Rogoff and Reinhard provides an interesting historical perspective showing that these sovereign debt issues were more or less unavoidable following a crisis in the financial system.

    More entertaining if less directly relevant to the European sovereign crisis is "The Big Short" by Michael Lewis.

    To the point of debt cancellation, another complicating factor is the size of the credit default swap market. These are effectively insurance contracts against default by the issuer of debt. A bondholder (the lender) can enter into a swap which means that if the creditor defaults, their losses are made good.

    Unfortunately, unlike insurance, you do not have to own the asset in order to purchase insurance against it. This is like insuring someone else's house against fire - suddenly you have the same exposure to fire risk as the homeowner (who is most likely also insured) and in an odd way you have created another 'house' out of nothing which will burn down alongside the first, creating a double loss for the insurer.

    In the case of European sovereign debt there are many times more face value of CDS outstanding than the actual debt, which means if there is a default by (eg) Italy the losses will exceed the value of Italy's debt many times over.

    This is why, in the case of Greece for example, there has been such an intense focus on making the writedown by banks "voluntary" so that it does not trigger the settlement of the related CDS contracts and worsen the problem.

    Unfortunately this also undermines the CDS market, because if you suddenly discover that the homeowner has voluntarily burned down his house and you aren't going to get paid out as a result, the value of your contract and like contracts on other houses is negatively impacted.

    A debt cancellation deal would have to avoid both triggering the CDS settlement and also undermining the CDS market in order to avoid turmoil.
    Last edited by phonicsmonkey; 11-21-2011 at 00:02.
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Use of CDS contracts are a good way of (on paper at least) reducing one's exposure to losses on bonds - German banks have massively reduced their exposure to greece in this way without the need to sell Greek bonds.
    But who backs the CDS? Probably the very same banks that are utilising them to reduce their exposure... not something that is going to help stabilise the whole situation. And this is even leaving the whole facet that by careful reviews of the small print the clauses can be avoided.

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  6. #996
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    what is the quality of the debt?

    example:
    french bank owns £200m of solid british debt british bank owns £200m of dodgy french debt
    why would the french government want to swap?

    now multiply that detailed and searching calculation by thousands!
    You are right, because their own self-interest and greed overrides their moral principles and obligations in trying to fix the status quo and usher in a brand new functioning system. This is why I would be a bad leader and a good leader at the same time if I was ever in such a position. I would attempt to fix all the problems, even if it incurs losses for the greater good.
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  7. #997
    Throne Room Caliph Senior Member phonicsmonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    who backs the CDS?
    Other banks who do not hold the underlying debt, sometimes the same banks that hold the underlying debt (because they earn a trading commission from writing the contracts) but largely those who are 'short' CDS (ie. in the position of the insurers) are speculators in the shadow banking system: hedge funds and SPVs owned by banks and insurance companies (like AIG who wrote many of the CDS on the sub-prime mortgages).

    The CDS market is only lightly regulated and while there are some entities which track CDS volume (like the DTCC), not all speculators in CDS report their trades in this way so it's pretty opaque as to the exposure levels.

    The DTCC tables I linked to show the gross notional USD value of outstanding CDS on (eg) Italian debt to be 312bn, with the net amount 21bn. This is compared to 2.2trn of outstanding Italian government debt. So my statement above was hyperbolic, I apologise - there will not be many multiples more losses as a result of CDS contracts, but in the event of default the losses will exceed the value of the outstanding debt and it is unclear by how much.
    Last edited by phonicsmonkey; 11-23-2011 at 10:02.
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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Germany fails to flog it's bonds.

    http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2011/...own-in-europe/

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  9. #999
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Germany fails to flog it's bonds.

    http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2011/...own-in-europe/

    Blimey.
    Indeed, about time to get Eurobonds so we can help everybody spend more with our good reputation.


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    Throne Room Caliph Senior Member phonicsmonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    The failed Bund auction is a big deal. It means the problems are coming home to roost at the core of the euro zone whereas before they could be dismissed as issues at the periphery. In my view it indicates the the Germans must soon drop their objection to the ECB taking action to underwrite the debt of the troubled eurozone countries.

    In fact the ECB is, this Friday and for the first time since 2008, re-opening its long term repo facility to enable financial institutions to secure financing against dodgy collateral. This time it's for 13 months and is effectively unlimited in size, so expect to see them finance around 1trn of bank debt versus sovereign bond collateral.
    Last edited by phonicsmonkey; 11-24-2011 at 23:25.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    warner on the end of days:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...pproaches.html

    from the article:

    "From the UK Treasury on Whitehall to the architectural monstrosity of the Bundesbank in Frankfurt, everyone is desperately trying to figure out precisely how bad the consequences might be."

    I imagine that deep within the bowels of the Bundesbank they are very discreetly firing up the dusty printing machines labelled "DM" in preparation for the eurocalypse.

    "In its current form, the single currency may always have been doomed, but it has been greatly helped on its way by an extraordinarily inept series of policy errors."

    No, not "may" have been doomed, it was always destined to be doomed. This is a Headless Sovereign crisis because the combined polities are so diverse that no mandate for action can be sought and receive a majority, which means that policy action must remain unaccountable, and rips any shred of legitimacy from the project.

    Had the eurozone been limited to Germany, Austria, the Benelux countries and Finland, the euro currency "may" have stood a chance as that lack of representation and accountability would not have been quite so insurmountable.

    That of course did not happen
    Last edited by Furunculus; 11-25-2011 at 17:28.
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    Come back to the fold, Europe.. The Marshall Plan 2.0 beckons.
    How yuh gonna pay for it this time? Don't forget, it took almost 70 years for the UK to repay the last one.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    Come back to the fold, Europe.. The Marshall Plan 2.0 beckons.
    Ahh, sorry. In less they all get upity again and we have put them in their place, again, that aint happening.


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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    How could so many clever people get it so wrong? The flaws in the euro project are not just clear with hindsight; they were visible at the outset and were widely pointed out. It was never going to be possible to jam widely divergent economies into a single monetary policy. It was plainly reckless to invite Italy and Greece to join the new currency when their government debt was at twice the permitted level of 60 per cent of GDP. Plenty of doubters said so at the time. Yet, in every national parliament, in every central bank, in every university faculty, in every television editorial conference, there was a collective suspension of disbelief.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    How could so many clever people get it so wrong? The flaws in the euro project are not just clear with hindsight; they were visible at the outset and were widely pointed out. It was never going to be possible to jam widely divergent economies into a single monetary policy. It was plainly reckless to invite Italy and Greece to join the new currency when their government debt was at twice the permitted level of 60 per cent of GDP. Plenty of doubters said so at the time. Yet, in every national parliament, in every central bank, in every university faculty, in every television editorial conference, there was a collective suspension of disbelief.


    Twilight of the Eurocrats: Angela's valkyries are riding to their doom (Illustration Michael Daley)

    Why? What were they thinking? If you listen carefully to what Euro-integrationists were saying when the single currency was launched, you hear a subtext. It's not so much that they liked the euro, it's that they disliked the people who opposed it. Listen, for example to Charles Kennedy in 2002:

    The euro, despite gloomy predictions from anti-Europeans, has proved to be a success. We cannot afford to be isolated from our biggest and closest trading partner any longer.

    Or to Ken Clarke:

    The reality of the euro has exposed the absurdity of many anti-European scares while increasing the public thirst for information. Public opinion is already changing as people can see the success of the new currency on the mainland.

    For such men, the issue was never really economic, or even political, but tribal. Having defined the question, in their own minds, as a Kulturkampf between sensible progressives and ignorant bigots, they became more or less uninterested in the facts.

    The extraordinary thing is that many euro-enthusiasts are still at it, quite unabashed by how things have turned out. Here, for example, is the historian Norman Davies in the Financial Times a couple of weeks ago:

    ‘How marvellous,' they chortle in the Tory clubs; ‘the busybodies of Brussels are meeting their come-uppance. After all, those ghastly Greeks who cooked the books to enter Euroland in the first place are sure to be cooking them again with an eye to ever larger bail-outs. Greece will push French banks down the chute first; but German banks won't avoid it, and together they'll finish Italy off. With luck, Italy will suck Spain into the abyss; Portugal will follow Spain, and Ireland Portugal. Just think of it! Those Irish traitors from 1922 will get their deserts! Terrific!'

    Then continental banks lock their doors and the cash machines dry up. Minestrone kitchens appear on the streets of Rome. Spanish bullrings house the destitute. The bridges of Paris fill with rough sleepers. Weeks and months pass free of money. Europeans relearn the art of barter. When the cash flow stutters back, machines distribute drachmas again, the franc nouvel and the peseta nueva. Yet Britain's latterday Blimps will still not be satisfied. They hanker for the whole hog; before we pull up the drawbridge, they say, the EU itself must vanish.

    For what it's worth, I have yet to meet a British eurosceptic who is enjoying the economic turmoil on our doorstep. It is plainly in our interest that the eurozone-which takes 40 per cent of our exports, and comprises our allies and friends-should flourish. That's precisely why we are alarmed at the readiness of eurocrats to sacrifice their peoples' prosperity so as to keep their monetary union together.

    Not that Norman Davies is much interested in what eurosceptics actually think. One of the oddities of the whole debate is that euroenthusiastic commentators who are quick to spot prejudice in others when it comes to racism, sexism or xenophobia are quite unable to detect it in themselves when it comes to people who don't share their Weltanschauung. (By the way, Professor Davies, one uses nouvel before a masculine noun beginning with a vowel – le nouvel an, but le nouveau franc. When loftily dismissing people as anti-Europeans, it's a good idea to get your own French right.)

    None of this would matter if it were simply an academic debate. The trouble is that the people running the EU refuse to learn anything from their errors. Since the crisis began four years ago, they have had only one response: massive loans. They have reacted to the failure of each bailout by accelerating the policy, until it has acquired a momentum of its own, like a runaway train: bailout-and-borrow, bailout-and-borrow, bailout-and-borrow.

    Why this mulish determination to stick with a strategy that is impoverishing Europe? Supporters of the project have taken to offering the old cure-would-be-worse-than-the-disease shtick. They no longer dare argue that the euro has brought benefits — two thirds of the citizens who use it believe it has made them poorer, according to Eurobarometer — insisting instead that leaving would be impractical.

    To British ears, such claims are eerily familiar. When it became clear that the Exchange Rate Mechanism, the euro's baleful predecessor, was wrecking our economy, the Establishment lined up to argue that, whatever the flaws in the system, we now had no option but to stick with it. Pulling out, declared John Major, would be "the inflationary option, the devaluer's option, a betrayal of the future of our country". In the event, of course, Britain's recovery began the day we left the ERM and continued for a decade and a half before Gordon Brown blew it away.

    Yes, there would be practical difficulties with returning to national currencies, but none would be insurmountable. By definition, all the countries in the euro have recently managed precisely such a changeover: that's how they joined in the first place. Oddly, I don't remember any eurocrats at that time droning on about the huge costs and complexities of having to replace your banknotes. And, indeed, the switch would be easier now than it was a decade ago, because more money is digitised, and banknotes represent a smaller proportion of the currency in circulation.

    Nor should leaving a currency union be any more complicated than joining one. I asked a Slovakian economist the other day how his country had managed the monetary transition when it divorced the Czech Republic. "Very easily," he replied. "One Friday, after the markets had closed, the head of our central bank phoned round all the banks and told them that, over the weekend, someone from his office would come round with a stamp to put on all their banknotes, and that, until the new notes and coins came into production, those stamped notes would be Slovakia's legal tender. On the Monday morning, we had a new currency."

    Why not do the same today? Because, to repeat, the euro was never about the economics. As Angela Merkel told the Bundestag in October:

    Nobody should take for granted another 50 years of peace and prosperity in Europe, and that's why I say, if the euro fails, Europe fails. We have a historical obligation: to protect by all means Europe's unification process begun by our forefathers after centuries of hatred and bloodshed.

    Put in those terms, of course, the issue is literally beyond argument. If you oppose the euro, Mrs Merkel suggests, you're in favour of war.The trouble is that, on any objective measure, the euro is stoking rather than soothing national antagonisms. Relations between Germany and Greece haven't been so poor since-well, since the Second World War.

    The reason, of course, is that people in both countries see politicians lining up with the Brussels elites against their own constituents. The few national leaders who dare challenge the EU risk being overthrown.

    George Papandreou did something unforgiveable in the eyes of Brussels when he proposed a referendum on the loans-for-austerity package. Eurocrats dislike and distrust popular democracy. Referendums at any time are frowned on; but a referendum when the euro was teetering on the edge was seen as the height of selfishness and ingratitude. Within a week, Papandreou had been forced out.

    A similar thing happened in Italy. Observing the EU's reaction to the Greek crisis, Silvio Berlusconi calculated that Eurocrats would do anything to prevent the break-up of the euro: if his austerity measures were insufficient, Brussels would come up with the extra cash. Accordingly, he let it be known that he was relaxed about whether or not Italy should remain in the euro. If the Brussels elites wanted to preserve their continental currency, he implied, they would have to pay for it. "Since the euro was adopted", he breezily told his countrymen, "most Italians have become poorer." Once those words were spoken, he, too, was doomed. An EU official at the Cannes summit was quoted as saying: "We're on our way to moving out Berlusconi." Five days later, il Cavaliere had been forced to announce his resignation.

    The funny thing is that neither of the ousted premiers was a eurosceptic. Papandreou, indeed, was a federalist. Their crime, rather, was to pay too much attention to their electorates. Leninists had a term for people who, while committed Bolsheviks, none the less behaved in a way which endangered the movement. They were known as "objectively counter-revolutionary". The supreme counter-revolutionary act, in the EU, is to ask voters what they want.

    If you think I'm exaggerating, consider the way the EU deals with referendum results when they go the "wrong" way. Ponder how Brussels swatted aside the verdicts of the ballot box in France, the Netherlands and Ireland. As José Manuel Barroso put it last year: "Governments are not always right. If governments were always right we would not have the situation that we have today. Decisions taken by the most democratic institutions in the world are very often wrong."

    People sometimes talk of the EU's democratic deficit as if it were accidental. In fact, it is essential to the whole design. Having lived through the 1920s and 1930s, the founders had little faith in democracy — especially the plebiscitary democracy which they saw as a prelude to demagoguery and fascism. They were therefore unapologetic about vesting supreme power in the hands of appointed commissioners who were to be invulnerable to public opinion. They were disarmingly honest, too, about the fact that their dream of common European statehood would never be realised if successive transfers of power to Brussels had to be approved by the national electorates.

    The euro was the culmination of their scheme. It would never have got off the ground had the decision been subject to national referendums. The only two countries to vote on whether to join — Denmark and Sweden — opted emphatically to keep their national currencies. Nor would the bailouts be approved today by the voters of the contributing states; nor, indeed, would the austerity packages be agreed by voters in the recipient states. In order to pursue these policies, two regimes have had to be replaced with what are called "national governments" — although their sole purpose is, of course, to carry out programmes that their nations reject.

    These "national governments" are headed by "technocrats" — meaning, in this instance, the euro-apparatchiks whose policies created the mess in the first place. The new Italian prime minister, Mario Monti, is a former European Commissioner; his Greek counterpart, Lucas Papademos, a former Vice-President of the European Central Bank. Mr Papademos, indeed, was running the Greek central bank when the calamitous decision was made to join the euro with twice the permitted debt level. In recent weeks, the EU has made explicit what was implicit all along. Bureaucrats in Brussels now deal directly with bureaucrats in the stricken peripheral states. The people and their elected representatives have been cut out. Greece is now as much a satrapy of the European Commission as ever it was of the Ottomans. Its people are learning at first hand that you can have European integration or you can have full democracy, but you can't have both.

    While most people recognise that the EU is undemocratic in its own structures, few understand the extent to which it subverts the internal democracy of its constituent states. In order to participate in an inherently unpopular project, the 27 national governments are repeatedly obliged to defy their own electorates — or face the consequences.

    The downfalls of Papandreou and Berlusconi are eerily reminiscent of that of Margaret Thatcher. She, too, was an elected national leader who had got on the wrong side of the Brussels machine. Her emphatic rejection of Jacques Delors's scheme for federal unification in 1990 was followed by the famous "ambush" at the EU Rome summit, when she was left looking unprepared and isolated. That was the trigger for British europhiles to move against her.

    It's true, of course, that all three leaders were already unpopular: Thatcher because of the poll tax, Papandreou because of the austerity measures and Berlusconi because of innumerable scandals. None the less, it is sobering to think that the Italian premier, having weathered allegations of corruption and mafia links, of bribery and underage sex, having shrugged off investigations by (at his own count) 789 prosecuting magistrates, having survived in office longer than any leader since Mussolini, should have been felled in the end by the EU.

    Borrowing a felicitious phrase from C.S. Lewis, I think of the phenomenon as the EU's "hideous strength". In his science fiction novel of that name, Lewis tells the story of a diabolical plot to take over Britain, which takes the guise of an apparently beneficent bureaucracy called the National Institute for Co-ordinated Experiments: NICE. The functionaries of NICE have deep pockets, offer generous salaries, and are vague but upbeat about their aims. They succeed in subverting one institution after another.

    The EU has a similar power to purchase the loyalty of NGOs, charities, business organisations, local councils and, above all, governing parties. Again and again, it persuades politicians at the domestic level to act against their national, party and personal interests for the sake of Europe. To give only the most recent example, all three British party leaders put out a three-line Whip against the parliamentary motion calling for a referendum on EU membership — despite the fact that 67 per cent of voters wanted their MPs to support the resolution, and despite the fact that all three parties were promising referendums on one aspect or another of European integration before the general election.

    The truth is that the EU, run by its 27-member politburo, is barely more democratic than the "German Democratic Republic" or the "Democratic Federation of Yugoslavia". While its member nations are all, in themselves, parliamentary democracies, Brussels functionaries fear and resent public opinion, or "populism" as they call it in their peculiar argot. Their attitude might not be quite so objectionable if the technocrats actually displayed any real expertise. Yet, time and again, they have been shown to be wrong, the mass of ordinary voters right.

    Rarely has this been more obvious than in their response to the financial crisis. Most of us know that the last thing an indebted friend needs is more loans. Most of us understand that if you're in debt, you should cut back on spending, not go on a binge. Most of us can see that if jamming disparate economies into a single currency isn't working, the answer is less integration, not more. Yet these truisms are quite lost on the European elites.

    The leaders of the eurozone are, of course, free to make their own mistakes. If they want to inflict penury and emigration on their southern members, and perpetual tax rises on their northern members, that is their prerogative. If they are prepared to pay a ruinous price to keep the euro — or, more precisely, to ask their peoples to pay, since eurocrats are exempt from national taxes — that's up to them.

    What I find inexplicable is that the United Kingdom should be investing political capital — let alone actual capital — in supporting the project. At the time of writing, Britain is on the hook for £12.5 billion in the Greek, Irish and Portuguese bailouts — a colossal sum even in these wastrel times, equivalent to £500 for every household in the land. To put it in context, consider that all the spending cuts made by the Coalition in its first 12 months in office amounted to £6.2 billion. Yet, if we are drawn into the Italian crisis, the bills will be far higher: ministers talk of Britain injecting a further £40 billion through the IMF.

    In justifying these subsidies, ministers tell us that the prosperity of the eurozone is in Britain's interest, and so it is. Yet it is now surely clear that the euro is a recessionary device. The survival of the single currency and the economic success of its constituent members, far from being synonymous, are becoming incompatible. Britain, in short, is being made to pay for the privilege of impoverishing its neighbours.

    What the devil are we thinking? According to the most thorough study so far, conducted by the Centre for Economics and Business Research, Britain's interests would be better served by the break-up of the euro than by its maintenance. There would be short-term pain followed, after about 30 months, by a higher rate of growth. Yet the Coalition continues to insist that the survival of the euro is an essential British interest. How has the Conservative Party moved so swiftly from "save the pound" to "save the euro"?

    The short answer is that it won office. It is difficult, until you encounter it at first hand, to grasp the intensity of the euro-fanaticism in the civil service and, most especially, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. The guiding principle of our Brussels mandarins is that they must always be present at the table: being human, they have an understandable tendency to conflate their own influence with the national interest.

    A minister who seriously challenged the basis of our relationship with the EU would be declaring war on the permanent apparat — a war that would consume his energies for an entire parliamentary mandate. Such ministers are, of course, rare. Which is why, in every EU member state, euroscepticism has so far been an exclusively opposition phenomenon. In most EU states, the governing cadres are as steeped in Keynesian economics as in euro-enthusiasm. Government employees are perhaps naturally sympathetic to doctrines which encourage state intervention, and their reaction to the financial crisis was the same as their reaction to all crises: to increase spending. As Mark Twain observed, if all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.

    We can now see where such profligacy has led Europe — and, indeed, where it has led the United Kingdom. Our treasury is empty, our credit exhausted, and we are reduced to relying on inflation to erode a deficit which we daren't tackle with spending cuts. Yet, broke as we are, it is seriously being proposed by our immaculately educated officials and ministers that we borrow billions more in order to prop up a currency union which is asphyxiating its participants. My masters, are you mad?


    http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/4208/full
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

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  15. #1005
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Hmm you ask what they were thinking

    Well I remember what they were thinking here if that's any good

    The 1992-93 currency crisis was still fresh in peoples memories and the politicians played up the ability of the currency to avoid such things.

    Of course not a single person really thought about interbank lending as a potential problem and now we see where we are.
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  16. #1006

    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey View Post
    The DTCC tables I linked to show the gross notional USD value of outstanding CDS on (eg) Italian debt to be 312bn, with the net amount 21bn. This is compared to 2.2trn of outstanding Italian government debt.
    Hah, that's nothing! Just look at the outstanding Dutch debt. 3.4trn, according to that site anyway. No, I am not making this up: if that site is to be believed the outstanding Dutch debt multiplied a thousandfold over the years 2005 and 2006 ...
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  17. #1007
    Throne Room Caliph Senior Member phonicsmonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Well that does look extremely odd and the chart doesn't match the data table below either for the Netherlands. The Italian figure of 2.2trn is correct though, I have seen it cited elsewhere.
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  18. #1008

    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    I have a bag of old European currency from before most of western Europe switched to the Euro, should I hold onto it?


  19. #1009
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    I have a bag of old European currency from before most of western Europe switched to the Euro, should I hold onto it?
    I should imagine that in order to combat tax evasion. No. There will be 'new' Drachmas, 'new' Liras, 'new' Escudos etc. etc.

    Shame really 'cos so have I.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

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  20. #1010
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    I should imagine that in order to combat tax evasion. No. There will be 'new' Drachmas, 'new' Liras, 'new' Escudos etc. etc.

    Shame really 'cos so have I.
    There still legal tender all you have to do is bring the to the local central bank of whatever country and they exchange them for Euro.
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  21. #1011
    Throne Room Caliph Senior Member phonicsmonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    There still legal tender all you have to do is bring the to the local central bank of whatever country and they exchange them for Euro.
    I thought there was a window for that which had now closed...but I could be wrong.
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  22. #1012
    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Without one bit of pleasure derived from correcting the schadenfreude displayed by our Backroom's yanks who were at pains to gleefully warn us about the unavailability of a second Marshall plan:


    The severity of the ongoing economic crisis in the Eurozone is perhaps best brought home by astriking statement made Monday by conservative Polish politician Radek Sikorski. "I will probably be the first Polish foreign minister in history to say this," he said, "but here it is: I fear German power less than I am beginning to fear its inactivity."
    Poland is not in the Eurozone, but it’s easy to see why Polish officials are panicking. Exports to the Eurozone members constitute more than 10 percent of Polish GDP, so a recession there would almost certainly spill over to Poland.

    Should Americans share this fear? A similar analysis for the United States suggests we have much less to worry about. Our exports to the Eurozone are closer to 1.3 percent of GDP. That’s not nothing, but it’s a pretty small piece of the economic pie. It suggests that the economy has less to fear from reduced exports to a careening Europe than it does from the looming expiration of the Bush income tax cuts and the Obama payroll tax cuts.


    But a different kind of analysis suggests that the United States could face catastrophe if the Eurozone tanks.

    This terrifying possibility is suggested in a Nov. 7 lecture by Princeton professor Hyun Song Shi, “Global Banking Glut and Loan Risk Premium” (PDF). The starting point for his analysis is the fact—well-known to financial practitioners, unknown to the public, and perennially rediscovered by the economics profession—that a very large share of the world’s dollars are held in non-American accounts. Indeed, for several years in the late aughts the total dollar assets of non-American banks actually exceeded the total assets of the U.S. commercial banking system and even today the ratio is close to 1:1.


    These foreign dollars—mostly held by European-headquartered global conglomerates—are not isolated from the American economy. Just as U.S. firms and households deposit money in American banks and take loans from the banks, European global banks intermediate between savers and spenders of dollars. A 2010 Bank of International Settlements survey (PDF) revealed that as of 2009, 161 foreign banks were operating 226 branches in the United States that raised more than $1 trillion in wholesale funding, largely through money markets. Dollars raised in the United States tend to ultimately work their way back to the United States (which, after all, is where you can use dollars to buy things) through the shadow banking system. European banks aren’t the only ones in this game, but they are the largest player. The upshot is that decisions made in Europe about how much leverage to take on play almost as big a role in determining American credit conditions as do decisions made in the United States.


    The lecture goes on to argue that European decision-making played a large role in inflating the now departed credit bubble of the mid-aughts, an interesting technical issue that needn’t keep you up late at night. The implication, however, is that a massive and sudden contraction of the European banking system would have the effect of automatically contracting credit conditions in the United States. If European credit markets tightened, the dollars held by European banks would suddenly become much less available as the basis for lending to American financial intermediaries and, ultimately, firms and households.


    As George Mason University economist Tyler Cowen put it "if true, we are doomed."


    It sounds counterintuitive to believe that less lending and less debt could be a problem when we’re currently suffering from the excessive borrowing of the past. But this hangover theoryis mistaken. Less credit and less borrowing now will only make our problems worse. Some currently solvent enterprises and households will be pushed into bankruptcy by difficultly rolling over their current debt. Others will curtail purchases and investments. Both factors will reduce incomes and drive overall spending down, further adding to America’s already large stock of idle facilities and unemployed workers. The punch will come, in other words, not because the collapse of the European banking system will cripple the European economy and thus indirectly hurt our ability to sell things to Europeans. Instead the collapse of the European banking system will directly cripple an American economy that depends on European banks to provide a fair share of our credit. The middling growth of the past year has been powerfully driven by an incredible boom in equipment and software investment by American firms that could dry up overnight and deal a devastating blow to an already fragile economy.


    Conventional thinking about Europe’s difficulties does not yet appear to take the effect on American credit markets into account. Yesterday the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development released updated economic forecasts reflecting new pessimism wherein “Euro area growth is forecast to slow down from 1.6 percent this year to 0.2 percent next year” while having only a modest impact on an American economy that will still grow 2 percent.


    We can cross our fingers and hope that’s right, but since 2008 policymakers have suffered from a bias toward optimism. Europeans were initially far too smug about the idea that they were insulated from problems relating to a housing bubble on the other side of an ocean. Then, in 2010, American policymakers were far too impressed by good news from the labor market and leapt to unwarranted conclusions about a “recovery summer.” Now the risk is that American leaders will overestimate our degree of insulation from the European banking system. You never want the people in charge to actually set off a panic by speaking too soon about hypothetical calamities, but we’d all better hope that somewhere in the basement of the Treasury Department and the Federal Reserve they’re prepping a Plan B to keep money flowing even if European finance dries up.[FONT=Verdana]



    Source
    Complementary research paper


  23. #1013
    Throne Room Caliph Senior Member phonicsmonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nowake View Post
    Without one bit of pleasure derived from correcting the schadenfreude displayed by our Backroom's yanks who were at pains to gleefully warn us about the unavailability of a second Marshall plan:





    Source
    Complementary research paper
    Yes in the markets these are known as "Eurodollars"
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  24. #1014
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    CDS seems to be more of the problem then a solution. Unregulated debt should not be the governments fault. Let this be the first too big slice of the cake to fail.

    The whole idea of having a CDS on something you don't own smacks of someone rooting for the system to fail. Seems to be used by the ultimate form of parasite ... Finance vehicles created to create inertia and make systems fail so they get a payout.

    Well guess what, call the bluff let the parasites play musical chairs with each other and do not give a single tax dollar to bail out their schemes.
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  25. #1015
    Throne Room Caliph Senior Member phonicsmonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    CDS seems to be more of the problem then a solution. Unregulated debt should not be the governments fault. Let this be the first too big slice of the cake to fail.

    The whole idea of having a CDS on something you don't own smacks of someone rooting for the system to fail. Seems to be used by the ultimate form of parasite ... Finance vehicles created to create inertia and make systems fail so they get a payout.

    Well guess what, call the bluff let the parasites play musical chairs with each other and do not give a single tax dollar to bail out their schemes.
    The problem is systemic risk. Say a bunch of CDS speculators and those who are owed money by them go bankrupt. They are highly unlikely to be solely in the business of speculating on CDS, so their bankruptcy hits others who are engaged in other businesses, and in turn others etc etc.

    The ripples spread outwards affecting parts of the financial system with no direct connection to CDS speculation.

    Having said that I don't think the CDS is the issue here, it's just a peripheral second-order effect that is important to avoid. The main issue is providing liquidity to solvent yet illiquid governments (Italy) while they restructure and while a long-term solution is found to save the Euro.
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  26. #1016
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    I dont think CDS is the problem yet.

    I was under the impression the problem at the minute is Euro banks slimming there balance sheets of Asian assets to obtain dollars in order to hedge against possible Euro collapse.
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 12-02-2011 at 11:08.
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  27. #1017
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    All very entertaining stuff. The 'Boy' v The Poison Dwarf. I'm neither convinced nor impressed.

    3/10 See me.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

  28. #1018
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Oh dear. There's talk of chucking us out!

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...802823,00.html

    Good.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

  29. #1019
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    The insults are hilarious as always, they should write rap.

    ' "What was on offer was not in Britain's interest ? so I didn't sign up to it," Cameron said. A little later, he made it clear that his country would not want to adopt the euro in the future either -- he was happy not to be in the Schengen Agreement, and happy not to be in the euro, he said.'

    Isn't that from 'How to fry an eurocrat's brain in 3 simple steps'

  30. #1020
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Resurrecting our focus on the commonwealth would be a far better idea as if nothing else that would lead to diversified trade rather than all eggs in one basket.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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