AOR systems, and the historical vs the realistic

[bobbin]

They did have xyphos, kopis and machaira, plus since the invasion of the Balkans they were already moving toward new styles...
While to keep with the examples in the east, for close quarters were much prefered shock weapons like sagaris and mace...

And eastern populations commonly used the Kopis as well as the Akinakes. I should also point out that the Kopis/Makhairia was much closer in intent and use to a mace or axe than to the Gladius.

No, I'm not speaking of the learning process, but of the training one: an unknown skill, without the help from someone who already mastered it, takes quite some time of "try and fail"...
While teaching whole communities, requires time and willingness from those communities, which if asked to fight, should they possess a rooted tradition would prefer to bring their arms...

This is a professional military we are talking about here, not some militia, they fought in what ever manner suited the Romans, not themselves. If a local tradition was beneficial to the Romans they would be formed into specialist Auxilia units based around that tradition (eg Numdian Cavalry, Cretan Archers etc), if not and if they were still needed they would be trained in Roman fighting styles.

You are not understanding what I'm saying, I have no problem with that assumption, what I'm talking about is the use of mounted archers and armour clad cavalry (in this very case), put in use by hiring locals, at first and in the most imminent time, while later it was about those very communities, to settle and train in such fashion people...

While there was a need for natives to set the ball rolling, once the tradition was established in the military the Romans didn't need to access to those same natives to continue it, they could also export it to other areas as they saw fit. They may have continued to do so in a lot of circumstances because the natives were usually the best, but that does not mean it was impossible to train others.

In overall, for ancient peoples, blood and traditions could sometimes transcend reason in decisions...

Sometimes yes, but you are implying that it was all the time.

In something as characteristic as warfare, unless people made the decision to do so, or they were already accustomed to similar styles, the imposition of other's ideas was, I dare say, impossible...

My point is they didn't get to decided how they fought in the legions! It's not like on the first day of legionary training Antigonos the Makedone said "Actually nice Mr Centurion I think I'll stick to my Sarissa thank you very much, I just can't get my head around your way of doing things....so how much do we get paid again?"

[Arjos]

They may have continued to do so in a lot of circumstances because the natives were usually the best, but that does not mean it was impossible to train others.

Yes, but the focal point is that it must get started by natives...

Sometimes yes, but you are implying that it was all the time.

All battlefield deployments by origin and citizenship, all administrative and command offices by origin and citizenship...

My point is they didn't get to decided how they fought in the legions!

The argument was that for the OP is reasonable to export the legionary fashion to any other area, with similar resources and geography; I say that's not all of it...
Plus iirc, it was always about voluntaries and not conscripts, so those professionals would come with their trade...
And if they were from the poorest of the poors, again the choice would have gone for origins, making the easterner a sagittarius, postguard or rower...

And historically I don't know of legionaries from Germania, Mesopotamia, Crimea and Armenia, I can easily see them fighting as auxiliares, but again that increased AoR is a one sided hypothetical...

[bobbin]

Yes, but the focal point is that it must get started by natives...

Of course they were, but your argument was that these natives would be the only source of soldiers trained in that tradition...period, that their skills were not transferable to others from elsewhere in the empire. Which is false.

All battlefield deployments by origin and citizenship, all administrative and command offices by origin and citizenship...
What was decided by merit? Promotions in those already fixed hierarchies I guess :P

The Roman Empire was hardly a meritocracy but even then people from otherwise undesirable origins could rise up the ladder, even to the position of Emperor.

The argument was that for the OP is reasonable to export the legionary fashion to any other area, with similar resources and geography; I say that's not all of it...
Plus iirc, it was always about voluntaries and not conscripts, so those professionals would come with their trade...
And if they were from the poorest of the poors, again the choice would have gone for origins, making the easterner a sagittarius, postguard or rower...

No it wouldn't have, the available manpower would have been allocated to where the Romans needed it, if they needed people for the legions that's where those volunteers would have gone.

And historically I don't know of legionaries from Germania, Mesopotamia, Crimea and Armenia, I can easily see them fighting as auxiliares, but again that increased AoR is a one sided hypothetical...

The AoR in EB is hypothetical, they needed to draw the line somewhere so they based it on the maximum extent the empire reached.

Mesopotamia, Crimea and Armenia,

Again, they would not have come from those places as they were either not part of the empire or were only incorporated for a very short time, I just explained that only a few posts ago.

[Arjos]

that their skills were not transferable to others from elsewhere in the empire. Which is false.

I said "at first and in the most imminent time ... to settle and train in such fashion people" meaning that afterwards they would train whoever or settle and raise their own children, I know my syntax is awful, I apologize for that :P

undesirable origins could rise up the ladder, even to the position of Emperor.

But they still were from within the empire...

if they needed people for the legions that's where those volunteers would have gone.

Given how vast the manpower was, they would have made "westerners" fight in the legion and "easterners" in other fashions, which is what they did...
Such preferences were written countless times during the classical and hellenistic periods, in such "nations" as Asia and Egypt, the natives were trained in macedonian fashion due to:

- lack of greek manpower, preserving the few who settled to be part of the assemblies, unless there were enough klerouchoi.
- desire by the locals to take part in higher social circles.
- easy transition from spearmen to pikemen.

The AoR in EB is hypothetical, they needed to draw the line somewhere so they based it on the maximum extent the empire reached.
Again, they would not have come from those places as they were either not part of the empire or were only incorporated for a very short time

Hence why I said they shouldn't be able to recruit them there: "with "provinces" that lasted less than five years"...

I'm off for the weekend, happy new year everyone ^^

[Stark]

Hence why I said they shouldn't be able to recruit them there: "with "provinces" that lasted less than five years"...

Why are you so obsessed with what really happened, the point of EB is to rewrite history, not relive it. Who says no one in EB2 will ever hold Mesopotamia or Armenia for more than 5 years?

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

Why are you so obsessed with what really happened, the point of EB is to rewrite history, not relive it. Who says no one in EB2 will ever hold Mesopotamia or Armenia for more than 5 years?

EB, and EB2 are intended to be more historically accurate representations of this era, not just a boundary-less 'what if'. In the same way that one cannot hold (in modern times) such as Afghanistan as a recognisably 'Western' state, so the power structures in Armenia were jot, at that time, particularly amenable to a Romaised state structure. I think (from the previews) this is exactly the sort of cultural reality that the EB team are trying to recreate.

Dacia, Gaul, Spain, North Africa...all fell into line after protracted and/or near genocidal conquest. They didn't simply embrace Roman ways. There is an argument that the Germanic peoples (and their environs) offered a greater threat to Roman stability than the Romans would gain by their conquest (as shown by Arminius). The same could be said for those areas bordering the nomadic Steppe cultures. Let's not also forget that the larger the Empire became, the more internal dissensions plagued it. I'm rather hoping that these aspects of Empire building are addressed in EB2.