Scythed chariots - my take

[Nightmare]

So in another thread, I was ... how do I put this so as not to offend any delicate sensibilities out there, and not have the mod send me more infractions and hate mail? "Less than overly-impressed?" Is that politically-correct enough? Anyway, in another thread I was "less than overly-impressed" with certain chariots in the game which henceforth will be known as That Which Will Forever Remain Unnamed, and thus I had inquired about scythed chariots of the Pontic/Selucid variety. A few posters said that the things run amuck and are generally problematic, thus all the feedback on them was negative. But being so "less than overly-impressed" with That Which Will Forever Remain Unnamed, I started a Pontic campaign to give the scythed chariots a try.

The preliminaries are that I basically took a gander at the map and then blitzed three Selucid cities with my starting units (one below my start city, and two more west), then fought off attack after relentless attack by Selucids/Ptolemais while I teched to the chariots. Anyway, after having just teched up to the things, I built one and put it in my main Selucid defense half stack covering my start city and the one beneath it. The next round he hit me with a stack consisting of anatolian/kappadokian hillmen, caucasian/hellenic spears, levy pikes, kinsmen cavalry, medium/light cavalry, etc. and thus the battle commenced.

All I had was a couple levy hoplites, a couple caucasian spears, an eastern skirmisher, a couple anatolian hillmen, my general, and the chariot. I was outmatched, but then I've been outmatched every battle this game.

Bottom line on the battle, I was able to get caucasian spears and hoplites onto some groups of his units to tie them up in what ended up being a semicircle bowing away from me, and I had my chariot plus general plus one or two hillmen somewhat back and to the side so the chariot wouldn't get hit with anything. I charged with the chariot first (towards the flank), and then after waiting a little bit charged my general/hillmen, hoping they'd hit after the chariot did.

Let me tell you, this chariot crashed through the flank and rolled over several units of enemies, plus some of my own, heh. Bodies were flying through the air, there was screaming/wailing/gnashing of teeth, and overall complete carnage. I double-clicked on the next enemy unit and the chariot never bogged down, it just trudged through all the bodies flying everywhere and hit new targets, then new targets after that.

After coming out the other side with what looked like a train wreck behind the chariot, I saw his kinsmen heavy cavalry charging headfirst into me with no time to react. My chariot (10 guys, normal unit size) plowed right through his kinsmen, and those kinsmen dropped from 30 down to 2 instantly upon contact and then routed. I pulled the chariot around to make more passes, only to find that pretty much his entire army was routing and running away, except for one stubborn unit of some elite spear or pike. I sent some of my dudes plus the general after the routers, then plowed the chariot into the remaining unrouted enemy infantry unit, which sent it packing in short order. His one or two remaining cavalry units were taken care of with ease.

In looking at the results, the chariot had around 100 kills and zero - count them zero losses - all 10 men remained.

Second battle with another Selucid stack occurred right after the first battle ended. To cut to the chase, he had a similar unit composition as battle #1, the battle went similary, the results were similar, and the chariot had zero losses, even after having had physical contact with the enemy a hundred or so times. In this battle, I had even left the chariot alone for a bit to tend to something else on the battlefield, only to come back and find that a unit of enemy spears had hit my chariot from behind! Not only did my chariot not lose any guys to this, but I double clicked away and the chariot extricated itself with relative ease.

Again, zero losses on the chariot. I thought to myself "now **THIS** is a bloody chariot!!!" I mean, where has this thing been all my life? To be quite honest, I had extremely low hopes for the chariot. I expected the chariot to break apart and the wheels to fly off with driver hurling headlong into the air upon any physical contact with anything, but that didn't happen. The bar was set exceedingly low, and it exceeded all of my expectations.

I've only had two battles with the thing so far, so any conclusions are preliminary. For all I know the thing disintegrates or runs amuck the instant a javelin is thrown at it or an arrow flies by. But so far this thing looks to be a thing of beauty worth it's weight in pure gold.

So do any other factions get these scythed (or similar) chariots, or just Pontos/Selucids? Also, what are your experiences with these things? Good? Bad? Ugly?

Others may speak of That Which Will Forever Remain Unnamed if they wish, but in an effort to avoid any undue, unwarranted, or unwanted attention from the mod, for me they will also be That Which Will Forever Remain Unspoken Of. Sorry.

THIS JUST IN: Battle 3 had similar results to battles 1 and 2. In battle 4 I lost 3 of the chariots (down from 10 to 7) but had 79 kills, and killed 2 of those Selucid generals that can never be killed using anything else. Compare these results with my royal kinsmen cavalry, who charged an enemy in the flank, took 3 losses right away, were pulled out, and had like 7 kills total. Note also that this half stack has not been replenished for any of these battles, while these are new stacks for the enemy. I will have to replinish now though :-(

ANOTHER UPDATe: Was trying to limp home to replenish this seriously depleted force. Three small Selucid armies surrounded me. I saw what was coming and hired 2 units of georgian medium infantry as mercenaries (all I could afford) and pushed the "finish" button. Was attacked by all three armies, the results were zero losses on the chariots and 70-something kills (the georgian infantry had more losses and less kills). Even better, this occurred next to an enemy town I was limping past, so it gave me the town.

[athanaric]

Have you noticed that Scythed Chariots are brilliant at chasing routers, especially routing pikemen? Routing units often spread out across the whole map, making pursuit an exaperating experience when using cavalry. Not so with chariots, who spread out as well.
I've had over 600 kills with one unit of Scythed Chariots in some battles. Their morale is brittle though. Watch out for flaming arrows.

[jirisys]

Have you noticed that Scythed Chariots are brilliant at chasing routers, especially routing pikemen? Routing units often spread out across the whole map, making pursuit an exaperating experience when using cavalry. Not so with chariots, who spread out as well.
I've had over 600 kills with one unit of Scythed Chariots in some battles. Their morale is brittle though. Watch out for flaming arrows.

Thank you for the advice.

I (thanks to you Nightmare) loaded my Pontic campaign, trained one and sent it to kill a seleucid Somatophylakes 0exp. They were 82 and I was 41. By the end, I was 22, running amok, and he was 1, routing without general.

~Jirisys ()

[Nightmare]

Have you noticed that Scythed Chariots are brilliant at chasing routers, especially routing pikemen? Routing units often spread out across the whole map, making pursuit an exaperating experience when using cavalry. Not so with chariots, who spread out as well.

Yes I have noticed that I'm cleaning up routers much better. Didn't know if that was in my head, luck, or if it was the chariots.

I (thanks to you Nightmare) loaded my Pontic campaign, trained one and sent it to kill a seleucid Somatophylakes 0exp. They were 82 and I was 41. By the end, I was 22, running amok, and he was 1, routing without general.

Glad to be of service!

I haven't run amok yet, but I'm sure I will at some point. But so far this lone chariot has paid itself off several times over with the kills it has given me, plus that city which I didn't even try to take.

[moonburn]

charriots are like elephants all it takes is a unit of akontistai cathing them by surprise

[Alien of Germania]

I sill cant figure out how to play them properly after all these years. Someone good with them should make a quick guide. Please? hehehehe

[PureEvil[PIE]]

Scythed chariots are ok. I can see how they do more damage than Casse chariots. However, I found that they did more damage for me when running amok than when they were under control, which was extremely wierd o.O. But yea, I prefer British chariots mainly for pretty much having the same morale reduction on the enemy but coupled with giving a morale bonus to my troops and having better morale. Though I'm glad you found a chariot you liked :>.

[Blxz]

Wait, the people in the mod sent you infractions and hate mail? What do you mean?
And if it was official infractions you are talking about, that first paragraph is likely to get you more if the moderators are in bad moods at the time they read it. I believe you are not meant to comment on things they do officially, at least not in public forums.

[seleucid empire]

scythed chariot charges are a bit different to celtic ones. i think with scythed ones yours actually supposed to click on the enemy unit and not behind them. is this the case? and also pontic chariots are their specialty and they have a different skin to seleucid ones so are they better statwise or morale wise in any way??

also i think the reason scythed chariots seem better than the celtic ones is cause your fighting in the east so theres no annoying forests or really strong western infantry

[Ludens]

I believe you are not meant to comment on things they do officially, at least not in public forums.

Why not? We actually have a forum for discussing site & moderation policy. Moderators are only human; we get things wrong occasionally. Obviously, we'd prefer it if you approached us privately first, or asked an administrator to mediate, but people are not forbidden from discussing moderator actions.

If a moderator were to send hate mail, you'd have every right to shout about it in public.

[Blxz]

Skin changes are just skin changes, provided you are talking about the same unit. Its actually quite common and really does add immersion to the game.

[Ca Putt]

The Seleucid one is more expensive and has + 4 armor resulting in a whooping great 24 armor :O

I'm happy you finaly found a unit you like :D

[Blxz]

Why not? We actually have a forum for discussing site & moderation policy. Moderators are only human; we get things wrong occasionally. Obviously, we'd prefer it if you approached us privately first, or asked an administrator to mediate, but people are not forbidden from discussing moderator actions.

If a moderator were to send hate mail, you'd have every right to shout about it in public.

Wow, this is a really easy going forum then. I have been to quite a few where they can rip you a new one if you start to "question ma awthoratay". I was just being overly cautious then.

[Nightmare]

The Seleucid one is more expensive and has + 4 armor resulting in a whooping great 24 armor :O

Oh wow. I'll have to try that one out for sure :-)

What's better for crashing into stuff and smashing it to hell... that thing, or elephants?

[Lazy O]

Both are shit, use Catatanks .

[jirisys]

Both are shit, use Catatanks .

If you pretend your catanks will even dent my Harmata Drepanephora, foolish Arsaces, you will pay with blood your prententious words.

~Jirisys ()

[Lazy O]

Even a prodromoi charge will rout chariots, no joke.

[athanaric]

So? A lancer charge can kill anything. I've repeatedly killed elephants with lancers. That doesn't mean cavalry is better than elephants or chariots. Different troops, different purposes.

[jirisys]

I assume you think I'll let them static while they are being massacred, right?

Instead of, say, make them chase and get mangled in the scythes? Maybe?

~Jirisys ()

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

If you can skirmish bulky and unwieldy Scythed Chariots away from light charge cavalry you are a better micro-manager than anyone I've seen

Chariots are difficult to use against humans but the AI won't make you pay for using them most of the time.

[Lazy O]

I suggested cavalry instead of elephants because then he would make a thread saying my elephants die too fast.

And yes, it is impossible to beat cavalry with chariots against an equally skilled opponent, they are a waste of time and money.

[rickinator9]

Actually, I almost killed 3 praetorian cav in vanilla multiplayer with some egyptian chariots. If they are not charging, the chariots will win, I think. Or I was just lucky.

[Ca Putt]

Well if the cavalry does not charge they will loose against close to anything :D

Elephants do seem to make a bigger punch but regular cavalry is just sooo much more reliable and will not run amok into your troops ;) Personally I like the starting elephants of some factions, but generally I prefer good ole Cavalry, afterall you don't have to charge the phalanx fromt he front^^.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Well chariots will massacre stand-still cavalry, even cataphracts and will smash them to a bloody pulp if the cavalry are moving but not charging. But a head-on charge from lance cavalry will destroy chariots and cavalry are much easier to use in almost any situation. Chariots main advantage is their fear affect which has a wide radius.

[Lazy O]

Vanilla chariots are a different matter and will slaughter anything that moves. Making Egypt the most OP faction in the game.

[jirisys]

Vanilla chariots are a different matter and will slaughter anything that moves. Making Egypt the most OP faction in the game.

You have not played numidia, have you?

And yes, it is impossible to beat cavalry with chariots against an equally skilled opponent, they are a waste of time and money.

My chariots die too fast.

I blame the unbalance. And the engine. And puppies. Kill the puppies.

Now, considering, if we were talking about real life, what would the actual outcome be? Considering the chariots have huge sharp metal things in the front.

~Jirisys ()

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

In real life the cavalry would refuse to engage Scythed Chariots. Maybe pepper them from range with javelins. The British ones would be utterly useless since they didn't have scythes. As far as I can remember, chariots were not used against cavalry be any ancient commanders and were instead used to disrupt infantry formations.

[Lazy O]

You have not played numidia, have you?

~Jirisys ()

Was that supposed to be a joke?

[jirisys]

Was that supposed to be a joke?

No, no it wasn't.

~Jirisys ()

[Lazy O]

So, have YOU ever played Numidia to suggest they can take on chariots?