About KH...

[Nightmare]

About KH...

Started up a Koinon Hellenon a while back (VH). I didn't do it because the faction or units appealed to me - in fact neither did... initially. I did it simply because it looked rather challenging, and let me tell you it was. I've never lost any game of any total war series - ever. But I almost lost this one. In fact, I thought it was lost for the longest time, but pulled it out miraculously enough. I've now driven the Maks completely out of Greece proper, and have taken Pella, Byzantion, a couple of cities in asia minor, plus Messana, Syracuse, and Rhegion. I'm definitely going to win.

Anyway, I guess my point is, even though the faction and units didn't appeal to me initially, I've enjoyed this campaign quite a bit so far (one of my favs). My initial thoughts going into it were "Oh great - generic hoplites that everybody and their mother can recruit, generic light and heavy skirmishers that everybody and their mother can recruit, generic crappy archers that everybody and their mother can recruit," on and on. I mean, just how many units in the game have "hellenic" in the front of their name, and just how many factions in the game can recruit this stuff, either directly, indirectly through foreign barracks, or mercs? Seems to me "most." Heck, the only units I've found that seem exclusive to KH so far are spartan hoplites, distinguished hoplites, and maybe light hoplites or that heavy hoplite phalanx (haven't seen anyone else running around with them yet, anyway). Everything else I see fielded by everyone else and their mother - heck even classical hoplites. That's probably my biggest complaint about playing this faction. That said, I'll say it again: I've enjoyed this campaign so far, as well as the faction and its units. Plus, there's sort of a "majesty" and an "air" about playing the "classical" greeks, you know?

A few comments, observations, questions, etc.

- What's with the Maks, anyway? It seems they can kill the crap out of everybody around them all at once. They bitch-slapped me hard for the longest time and I almost lost, they bitch-slapped Epeiros and drove them back to their starting cities, they went up north and bitch-slapped the Dacians so bad that they only had one city remaining on the coast and had to flee north for their lives, they bitch-slapped Pontos and kicked them off of byzantion, and they probably could have bitch-slapped even more if anyone else was around. They could produce (and reproduce) stack after stack - high end stuff too. And no matter how much you killed, they always had more. And no matter how many people were hitting them all at once, they could spank everyone a new one at the same time. Are their starting cities just way richer than everyone elses? Are their units just better than everyone elses? Do they start out at a higher tech level than everyone around, or start with 10 full stacks hidden in some brush somewhere? What gives? It's like they're the rabid dogs of EB. I'd put them against the Romans any day - seriously.

- For the longest time I didn't know what to do about getting some kind of sword unit. I mean, hoplites are great, don't get me wrong, but they are rather defensive, and it seems at some point you need something with a little more offensive punch. You might say "hire mercs, fool," but I purposefully haven't hired any mercs this game and don't intend to. I want an "all KH" solution to everything for this game, so to speak. At any rate, I think I finally figured out (correct me if I'm wrong) that the heavy skirmishers are my "swordsmen" early on, and the hoplite phalanxes I get later are my heavy swordsmen... is that correct (kinda weird for something called "phalanxes" to be my swordsmen, but whatever)? How does this stuff stand up to the Romans, btw (heh)?

- The highest thing I've teched to so far (ignoring spartan and distinguished hoplites) is the hoplite phalanxes. These things look to be "reform" units, but I'm not so sure about that. I've tried to put them to use, but they seem somewhat strange. They use underhand spears, and are spread out instead of densely-packed. Also, their spears are short compared with the pikes of other factions. It all seems to defeat the purpose of what a "hoplite" and a "phalanx" is in my mind, but whatever. What am I supposed to use these dudes for... heavy swordsmen? How about the spear aspect... any good?

- Is there anything else down the pipe for me, techwise? I have ultimate barracks in at least 3 cities, maybe more. I thought I read somewhere that KH eventually gets some kind of "real" pike phalanx, but I haven't gotten it yet. some kind of reform? What do I have to do to get it?

So do I have these guys pegged right? Also, what are your thoughts (on anything)?

Thanks for any answers.

[Brennus 024]

Hello, about the hoplite phalanx (i assume you're talking about the Thorakitai) they are not a real phalanx. I 've read somewhere that KH can't recruit units that can form aproper phalanx without a reform or they need to conquer Epeiros or Makedonia to recruit them as local units.... That's all I can say. I'm in the beginning of a KH campaign, but I'm quite novice with EB.

If you want a viaw on every kindd of unit you can conquer as KH, here :

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/

As for the Maks, they were tough and organised fighters or Mega Alexandros would never have manage to defeat Persia when they outnumbered him that much. The game starts just a while (50 years if i remember well) after Alexander's death. So they are still strong. Plus, from the begining of their kingdom they had to fight the most feroucious barbarians to maintain their northern borders and had a very efficient conscription system. So, I believe it looks logical that they are so powerful.

For their aggressiveness, I had the same feeling with the Lusitonians during my Roman campaign (wich I didn't finish because I found it repetitive). I could take their territories one after an other; and destroy two armies of 1000 men in the same turn and they would send me another one on the next turn.Even after they had only 3 cities, they were still recruiting at an abormal speed. If they wouldn't have nbeen surrounded by seas, they would certainly have perform the same way as your Maks. guess the reason is that the EB script wich tries to balance the weakness of the AI factions...

[Shadowwalker]

Heya Nightmare,

yes, the first years of any campaign in Greece (be it Macedonia, KH or Epeiros) can be very hard and usually contain suprising lots of enemy stacks out of nowhere - especially if you play on VH campaign difficulty (I assume you do since IIRC you stated such in every campaign of yours I read about... ).
H and VH campaign difficulty give the AI the "ability" to recruit mercenaries (on lower difficulties they don't do that) and therefore add even more enemy soldiers since especially Greece is rich on mercs.

As soon as you secured mainland greece though it's usually smooth sailing for some time (although VH means that you will most probably be under attack constantly from everyone around, including any faction that "shares" a sea border with you, like Ptolemies. This is especially true if you use BI.exe or Alex. exe which both feature AI attacks via sea.)

As for the reform units for KH - there is the chance of getting "real" (as in "macedonian") phalanxes via the march of time (maybe the greek noble cavalry as well, not sure about that). KH unfortunately has no own reform but is part of this rather "shared" refrom event. (I assume this to become much improved when EB II finally destroys our social lives ).
To trigger the March of Time one of the roman cities in Italy (the cities with the "Italy" ressource) except Roma itself has to build an Imperial palace.
This means that
(a) it will take some time (since even Capua usually needs about 30-60 years to grow up to "huge"),
(b) Citymod will make the MoT not happen at all anymore (unless you tweak it to allow at least Capua to grow to "huge"; every attack or capture of the city means a serious additional delay)
(c) destroying the SPQR before the MoT prevents that event from happening as well.

Playing a faction dependent on that event (and there are several ones) can become a bit painful since you have to make sure that SPQR survives and builds up. Which can be a bit difficult if you play Baktria for example.

[athanaric]

Makedonia has a bunch of "I win" units, notably the best composition of sarissa phalanx units. Who are, incidentally, over powered in autoresolve (another quirk of the engine - it apparently calculates the units as running straight into one another), which in turn explains their success against other AI factions. Also the heaviest cavalry in the region and several elite infantry units.

You'll get pikemen via the March of Time reform. Which also grants Makedonia even better pikemen, so they can still beat you.

Xystophoroi and Lonchophoroi are your friends.
The Iphikratean Hoplites are good vs skirmishers or light infantry (their role overlaps with the Ekdromoi), but Iphikrateans are better on walls (swords) and probably worse against cavalry.
The Thorakitai Hoplitai have armour-piercing swords which of course gives them an edge against other armoured units, especially heavy cavalry. Also good on walls.
Also, don't forget the actual Thorakitai, a great unit. Technically Kretan Archers are also swordsmen.
And have you tried Rhodian Slingers? They're really worth it.

[antisocialmunky]

Who need swords when you have imba cretans and imba slingers? :O

[moonburn]

pella and dalmatia are the 2 richest city´s in the game pella with 3 gold mines acess to the aegean and 4 land borders gives a crapload of money from mining and trading

dalmatia as 2 gold mines and 1 silver mine plus acess to the adriatic sea and 3 or 4 (does it have a border with serdike?) borders

so anyone that controls pella can basically have enough upkeep to sustain a full stack just on mines alone so if you can make the population grow fast pella would be the the greatest starting base for any faction (wich explains why alexandros and phillipos had such sucess) on our stardate makedonia is depopulated due to the constant wars and the fact that a vast majority of makedonians had moved to the diadochii lands since being a kleurikoi was better then being a poor pesant


personally i deslike makedonia due to the lack of thorokitai wich makes it harder to autoresolve and towards the end when facing off against the seulekids it becomes hard to fight every batle (once i had 12 batles in the same turn with my 5 invading armies and every 2 batles it had a cdtc)

[Nightmare]

As for the Maks, they were tough and organised fighters or Mega Alexandros would never have manage to defeat Persia when they outnumbered him that much. The game starts just a while (50 years if i remember well) after Alexander's death. So they are still strong. Plus, from the begining of their kingdom they had to fight the most feroucious barbarians to maintain their northern borders and had a very efficient conscription system. So, I believe it looks logical that they are so powerful.

Sure, I know all about that, and agree with it. I'm not complaining about their power, or overpoweredness. Just wondered how or why, game-wise, they could be so powerful. Income? A bunch of starting stacks? Etc.

I've fought AS a bunch of times, of course, and they can and will send infinite stacks your way. But they have a humongous empire to support it. I just wondered how little starting Macadonia supported such a thing.

[Blxz]

Just wondered how or why, game-wise, they could be so powerful. Income? A bunch of starting stacks? Etc.

I just wondered how little starting Macadonia supported such a thing.

Didn't you read the post directly above yours? He posted 7 hours before you did so I don't think you were typing at the same time..... Admittedly the grammar is atrocious but the points are valid.

[Sapper]

Nightmare, I am glad you have grown to like KH. You are, of course, completely right about them being one of the many "Hellenic" factions, but I think that the differences there are do make them worth a go. And because they don't have some of the uber units others do (Spatran Hoplites aside) they can be more of a challenge than most.

Firstly; Ekdromoi Hoplitai (Greek Light Hoplites), Iphikratous Hoplitai (Greek Hoplite Phalanx), Thorakitai Hoplitai (Greek Heavy Hoplite Phalanx), Epilektoi Hoplitai (Hellenic Distinguished Hoplites), Hippeis Xytophoroi (Greek Noble Cavalry) and Somatophylakes Strategou (Greek Generals) are faction unique. After the "March of Time" reform Koinon Hellenon Phalangitai (Greek Phalanx) (that is Sarissa armed Makedonian style phalanxes) is also faction unique. In addition the following are available to only one or two other factions: Spartiatai Hoplitai (Spartan Hoplites) - Carthage, because of the scripted Xanthippus event I guess; Hippeis (Greek Medium Cavalry) - Epeiros and Rome. Furthermore Somatophylakes Strategou (Greek Generals), along with their Spartan colleagues, are generals that walk! Now thats different!

Secondly, swords: Peltastai (Hellenic Heavy Skirmishers), Iphikratous Hoplitai (Greek Hoplite Phalanx), Thorakitai Hoplitai (Greek Heavy Hoplite Phalanx) and Koinon Hellenon Phalangitai (Greek Phalanx) all have swords as secondary weapons.

Thirdly; if Iphikratous Hoplitai (Greek Hoplite Phalanx), is as good as you can recruit then you have at most a Level 3 Native MIC. At level 4 you will get Thorakitai Hoplitai (Greek Heavy Hoplite Phalanx), Epilektoi Hoplitai (Hellenic Distinguished Hoplites), good old Thorakitai (Hellenic Heavy Spearmen) and, after the "March of Time", Koinon Hellenon Phalangitai (Greek Phalanx). Level 5 (in Sparta) will give you Spartiatai Hoplitai (Spartan Hoplites) and not just Spartan FMs.

Hope this helps.

[Nightmare]

Didn't you read the post directly above yours? He posted 7 hours before you did so I don't think you were typing at the same time..... Admittedly the grammar is atrocious but the points are valid.

I read the post you are referring to. What makes you think I didn't? I was just clarifying to the other guy that I did not question whether it was valid for Macadonia to be as powerful as they seem to be, rather I was questioning something else. If I didn't clarify it, it would be "on record" that I think the Maks are OP or have some balance issue (I don't think that), and the next thing that happens is some troll comes crashing in here berating me on that and whatever else.

While tedious, I find that spelling out one's points is something that often needs to be done over and over again, both on forums and in real life. I heard a saying in a management class once - something to the effect of "tell the person what you're gonna tell him, then tell him it, then tell him what you just told him."

Thirdly; if Iphikratous Hoplitai (Greek Hoplite Phalanx), is as good as you can recruit then you have at most a Level 3 Native MIC. At level 4 you will get Thorakitai Hoplitai (Greek Heavy Hoplite Phalanx), Epilektoi Hoplitai (Hellenic Distinguished Hoplites), good old Thorakitai (Hellenic Heavy Spearmen) and, after the "March of Time", Koinon Hellenon Phalangitai (Greek Phalanx). Level 5 (in Sparta) will give you Spartiatai Hoplitai (Spartan Hoplites) and not just Spartan FMs.

I can recruit everything you listed except the pike phalanx unit. Thanks for the overview of sword units and faction unique units - helpful.

[Blxz]

I heard a saying in a management class once - something to the effect of "tell the person what you're gonna tell him, then tell him it, then tell him what you just told him."

Ok. You wondered how macedonia could support big stacks of troops.

Firstly, as moonburn said. Very rich cities. Of course at the beginning of the game they are not as rich as they will ultimately develop into.

Secondly, AI money support, when their money goes down they get more money. Since they are so close to you and they get huge amounts of money they will spam what they can to try and crush you.

Thirdly, the AI gets additional troops at the start compared to the human player.

Finally, the AI gets a bonus to population every time it recruits a unit so the population of its cities will NEVER decline. If you are playing on smaller than HUGE unit sizes this will actually make their population INCREASE each time they recruit. This can lead to runaway growth.

Since I don't do management class I won't go through the effort of telling you that again. Of course if you are unclear, by all means ask me to clarify a point.

[Nightmare]

Ok. You wondered how macedonia could support big stacks of troops.

Well, I wondered how they could bitch-slap everybody and their mother all at the same time (me, epieros, dacia, pontos, etc) and still have more to dish out. That's not the same thing as asking "how do they support big stacks of troops," rather that could be an answer to my question, i.e. "they can bitch-slap everybody because they can support big stacks of troops."

Cut and pasted from above:

I'm not complaining about their power, or overpoweredness. Just wondered how or why, game-wise, they could be so powerful. Income? A bunch of starting stacks? Etc.

At the end of the day, it's not such an important question for me, just something I threw out there. I played as Epieros once and spanked the Maks so hard it wasn't even funny - in fact it was brutal. That leads me to believe that at least Epieros has the power to take on the Maks, but perhaps not in the hands of the AI, only a human? Either way, if the answer is "the Maks have rich cities," I accept that. Hell, if the answer was "they get 10 starting stacks" I'd accept that too for that matter. I'd pretty much accept any answer.

Also, I play on normal unit sizes - didn't know that contributed to the AIs population boom LOL. Thanks for that bit of info.

[Blxz]

No prob. Always happy to help.

[moonburn]

pikes have a massive advantage in auto resolve (altough massive might not be the right word if you know how to use them you always have an advantage against the artificial inteligence)

all combined makedonia aslong as they can keep pella they are the european diadochi as good as ptolomaioi or the arche and they have the best growth expectations with a crapload of mines next to them and acess to the aegean and the adriatic as i said their weakest point is the lack of thorokitai wich sucks when you get sick of fighting every single batle and decide to auto resolve a few batles

[Nightmare]

as i said their weakest point is the lack of thorokitai wich sucks when you get sick of fighting every single batle and decide to auto resolve a few batles

Are thorakitai the heavy spearmen? Why do they lack those? They aren't faction-exclusive, are they? I thought everybody and their mother could produce them?

Either way, why is it an advantage to have thorakitai in auto-resolve? Pikes get a bonus auto-resolve, right, so it seems the pikes would have the advantage, not the thorakitai?

[moonburn]

there´s also the armoured bonus (wich sucks greatly against lusitanians but fares well against romans since the romans also have that advantage of the heavily armoured) so armoured units vs unarmoured deutoroi triarii and pedites win but if you put in a few heavily armoured units you balance that out and get the advantage of the pike bonus

thorokitai are available to the epirotes koinon (koinon also gets the heavy hoplites besides thorokitai) and ptolemaioi the seulekids get the agematos (kind of super thorokitai) while the maks get the reformed peztharoi (more armoured units of pikes but not armoured enough)

if you get bored and start fighting batles in auto resolve you´ll see the diferençes

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Arche Seleukeia also gets regular Thorakitai.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

So does Baktria and even Pontus gets a sword armed equivalent.

[geala]

The Macedons don't get thorakitai because they get two royal guards, oriented roughly on the hypaspistai, one with spear and aspis and one with heavy javelins. However, the guards are only 120 compared to 160 in case of the thorakitai and I did not like them so much in my last (and long gone) Macedonia campaign. Compared to their high costs they performed not so very well.

[seleucid empire]

hypaspistai are quite good, its the pelt-maks that i dont like. i replace them with thorakitai in most of my Hellenistic campaigns

[rickinator9]

I couldn't get the pelt-maks role really. They seem to be übercharged skirmishers, nothing more, nothing less

[seleucid empire]

they are basically armoured shortswordsmen. i really cant seem to find a use for them when i can just hire a unit of mercs for less price which can do a better job. they cant really hold against cav and they are actually a bit too slow to flank

[Arjos]

They are one hell of a shock or assault unit: frontal charge or taking over walls for example...

[seleucid empire]

im glad you found a good use for them. whenever i use them they die like flies, especially in field battles

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

The basic issue is that shortswords have terrible lethality. In MP we raised it to around 0.15 and this created a substantial difference. I think it was originally 0.11 while longswords are 0.225 for comparison.

[athanaric]

Peltastai Makedonikoi have a basic lethality of 0.13. No special boni. Just like Legionaries and some other quality swordsmen.

[moonburn]

peltastai makedoniki are for laughs i understand they´re suposed to be assault infantry but seriously an agronikoi or whatever they´re called are far better one of the best units imho

[Tellos Athenaios]

The Macedons don't get thorakitai because they get two royal guards, oriented roughly on the hypaspistai, one with spear and aspis and one with heavy javelins. However, the guards are only 120 compared to 160 in case of the thorakitai and I did not like them so much in my last (and long gone) Macedonia campaign. Compared to their high costs they performed not so very well.

The Maks don't get them, because as I recall the argument historically they didn't really use them. For example the AS gets both those elites you mention, and the Thorakitai...

... The AS also gets chariots and Median cavalry... and missile units...

[athanaric]

... The AS also gets chariots and Median cavalry... and missile units...

And barbarian infantry, and a Persian unit roster...

[seleucid empire]

AS has everything as well as a wide recruitment area for factional troops. they rock!!