Kingdoms Teutonic HS: Winter is Coming (completed, winner Myth)

[Myth]

Lithuania up.

Zim that force lurking in the forest near Dunagberg was discovered by a diligent Teutonic priest. The remnants of said army retreated to Dunaberg but they cannot sally next turn as per the rules.

[phonicsmonkey]

Novgorod

Well I might be speeding up my demise but it's better than sitting at Minsk waiting for you to kill me...

[Myth]

I was waiting for you to starve to death actually, hoping that the army you have will put you in the negatives and that Zim wouldn't be able to finance your endeavor with war already raging between us.

[Zim]

Lending some money to phonics is a pretty good idea.

HRE

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...id=205&id=9903

[slysnake]

bump!

[Cecil XIX]

Sorry for the delay, everybody!

[Nightbringer]

Poland up!
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...id=205&id=9913

[slysnake]

Norway!

WiC-Norway-8.sav

[Rougeman]

WiC-Teutons-9.sav

[Myth]

Novgorod up.



Lithuania has been destroyed. Good game to Phonicsmonkey!

[phonicsmonkey]

Well played Myth, I saw the Teutonic steamroller coming but I couldn't get out of the way. Curses to those who promised assistance but never showed up. Go Novgorod!

[Zim]

Only place Novgorod is going is an early grave.

Funny, didn't even occur to me to try the fort avoidance trick last turn, although I'm not entirely certain how it works. The game always plots a path the long way around forts anyway when I move an army, but I was able to repeat it in a test of the situation in the Third Age game. Something to do with the "protected" army being right next to the fort being bypassed?

Also, lousy Polish assassins.

HRE

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...id=205&id=9925

[slysnake]

Only place Novgorod is going is an early grave.

Funny, didn't even occur to me to try the fort avoidance trick last turn, although I'm not entirely certain how it works. The game always plots a path the long way around forts anyway when I move an army, but I was able to repeat it in a test of the situation in the Third Age game. Something to do with the "protected" army being right next to the fort being bypassed?

Also, lousy Polish assassins.

HRE

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...id=205&id=9925

Hey, I could have easily gone for your faction heir, but the rules restricted me from doing so, so think yourself lucky! XD

[Myth]

Some assassins have been sabotaging my cities to the North. Zim was that you by any chance?

The fort advance thing is paramount in lead battles games, it's the #1 thing one must master if he is to survive. Silver Shield taught me that in GA and Monkey repeated the lesson in WOTK2 (where I was broke, not that I didn't know how to use them by that time) It wouldn't have helped you though since I hauled siege weapons to the front lines to take the wooden Lithuanian towns.

BTW now that Monkey is out of the game I'd say for future reference (and probably add it to the guide if you guys agree) - Lithuania has the following position at the start of the game:

Good:

- Above average income + nice resources
- Starting armies with catapults and NF generals
- Horse Archers aka. the demons of lead battles

Bad:

- In the middle of the map (could be Good if the player is apt in diplomacy and sics some of his neighbors on the TO)
- A combination of woods and towers, both for hiding and revealing enemy hiding armies (but may work to their disadvantage if the towered province is lost and if the woods are not thoroughly scouted with priets)

Ugly:

- 90% of it's starting settlements are wooden (huge drawback)
- Almost no infrastructure and money buildings
- Virtually landlocked
- The TO wants them dead

Based on these as I said, the #1 factor for a Lithuanian player is Diplomacy. That being said, the best strategy to adopt (IMO only) is a defensive one. It's erroneous to think that sitting back will give the TO a significant advantage over what they start with. The fact is, the TO starts with so many armies that it goes broke around turn 3. It always gets a mission to take that one rebel village up North, between TO/Danes/Novgorod (above Dunaberg), and usually gets free Christ Knights or OS (which means yet MORE upkeep to pay). So, the TO is absolutely forced to attack and sack settlements.

Now, Tristan did this vs. Poland but I have my suspicions that the player was not that good (sorry if I offend) and that everyone was caught by surprise of just how strong the TO is in autoresolve (and Tristan knows how to make a good AR stack). Ideally taking Poland's stuff in a blitz unmolested would make the TO virtually unstoppable. However a good player commanding them can put up a significant resistance (see NB in the last game).

Denmark is across the sea, the HRE is past Poland, Norway is on another plane of existence... Novgord is hugging the Eastern edge of the map and the Mongoloids are poor and too far away. So the only safe target left is Lithuania. So a Lithuanian player can basically be 99% certain that the TO will be gunning for him. As such, assaulting first and leaving himself exposed to sallying defenders is bad. Why? Because Lithuania starts with catapults. Sure, the TO does as well, but they still have to move within striking range of the Lithuanian cities. And a garrison equipped with catapults can clear any forted up armies that get within siege weapon range of the border. So now you either bait a lesser TO player to lose his two starting stacks (at which point he would basically be finished) or you play an effective trench war from which Lithuania is going to come better off as it has better income AND this would allow Novgorod, the Mongols or Poland to move their arses and do something.

If the TO player starts sneaking about, he will be forced to hit minor settlements to the south and then will reach one of the two stone-walled Lithianian cities which can become killing fields for any army left overnight. (Note: this only works in a lead battles game naturally. I don't think anyone can beat a capable TO player as Lithuania in an AR game IF the TO focus on them specifically)

That's my analysis anyway.

[Zim]

Any actions of Novgorodan agents would be classified, of course.

Some assassins have been sabotaging my cities to the North. Zim was that you by any chance?

[Myth]

I guess we'll know once Poland's spy turns around to check the area.

[phonicsmonkey]

In general I agree with your analysis Myth, but I'd add and amend the following:

Good:

- Above average income + nice resources
- Starting armies with catapults and NF generals
- Horse Archers aka. the demons of lead battles
- Cheap and plentiful javelin cavalry, extremely effective against BG units and heavy cav in general

Bad:

- In the middle of the map (could be Good if the player is apt in diplomacy and sics some of his neighbors on the TO) [Lithuania only neighbours the TO, Novgorod and Mongols]
- A combination of woods and towers, both for hiding and revealing enemy hiding armies (but may work to their disadvantage if the towered province is lost and if the woods are not thoroughly scouted with priets)

Ugly:

- 90% of it's starting settlements are wooden (huge drawback)
- Almost no infrastructure and money buildings
- Only one siege weapon training facility
- No ability to recruit spies or assassins
- Virtually landlocked
- The TO wants them dead and surrounds them on three sides

As for the following:

That being said, the best strategy to adopt (IMO only) is a defensive one.....
Why? Because Lithuania starts with catapults. Sure, the TO does as well, but they still have to move within striking range of the Lithuanian cities. And a garrison equipped with catapults can clear any forted up armies that get within siege weapon range of the border. So now you either bait a lesser TO player to lose his two starting stacks (at which point he would basically be finished) or you play an effective trench war from which Lithuania is going to come better off as it has better income AND this would allow Novgorod, the Mongols or Poland to move their arses and do something.

I don't fully agree. I think an aggressive strategy on the northern front (where TO has its capital and not much in the way of good starting troops or catapults) is the best option for Lithuania to get some breathing space.

In my attempt I coupled this with a defensive western front, but it's extrememly difficult to play at fort warfare when siege weapons are involved if you are behind in the turn order and can't see the potential movement of your enemies. I lost a major army that way, by trying to apply my own catapult's movement rate to your army which was forted up and (I thought) just out of range of my city. As it turned out your general must have had a movement bonus and was able to get into my city and destroy me.

That was the second key turning point.

The first was when your ship-borne army ignored my carefully placed (and expensive) forts and strolled right through them to kill off my major force which was besieging Riga and would have taken it on the following turn. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that if that hadn't happened I would have stood a decent chance of at least holding out until Novgorod arrived at the scene and then maybe with some luck we could have beaten you. Riga is your capital, would have provided me a decent lick of income and north of 10k in sacking proceeds. Plus, of course I wouldn't have lost my main army.

I don't like to complain which is why I didn't at the time but I think that was an exploit and I'm going to find a way to rule it out in future games.

Overall I think I played this OK but I was perhaps too aggressive in places. I also could have been luckier.

Diplomacy was hard in this game. The Mongols were AI, Novgorod took my side but was too long in getting to the front to help me and Poland, for whatever reason, just decided to side with the TO. The others variously promised or suggested help but nothing ever materialised. There is nothing really that Lithuania can offer them except to frighten them about the TO getting too big. We'll see when this game pans out further whether their decision to abandon me and let you have a free run is a good one or not.

[Myth]

1. I made Riga my capital on turn 1 since it's more profitable, it's not by default.

2. It is placed between Dunaberg and that castle on the edge of the coast, and has the TO's second in command with a halfstack there, and that guy is a 5 star general (IIRC) that has Night Fighter. The only thing it lacks is siege weapons, true, but the boat thing was not of major consequence - the garrison with the 2 GBs could have beaten you I think (I can load to check that particular battle). If nothing else, the TO player can just stack FMs in Riga to make sallies 100% victories as the AI is not nearly as good with jav-cav. Or he can leve that second in command there until the Hochmeister's main army comes. Sure that would probably mean conceding Dunaberg but that's the only province Lithuania can take if the TO decides to keep Riga at all costs. You did get your heroic victory none the less however. I was glad I left my 2nd in command to tend to the city else he would have been dead (instead of causing Zim trouble)

3. The Hochmeister is probably the best general on the map at the start. He indeed has a movement bonus and Night Figher. He also has 6 or so Chiv which makes city booming a viable option for him. And you can always fall back on him if in dire need of a brilliant general. Does the Grand Duke not have +movement as well?

BTW I'm thinking of making a list of the top 10 reasons players lose in hotseats. I'll put "Neglected to scout with priests/spies" at #3 and "Forgot about Night Fighter" at #2 probably.
Neglected to protect his army with forts" a solid #1 IMO. Other gems like forgetting to build rams when sieging, neglecting diplomacy, being backstabbed, losing all your FMs in one battle and having a vital army turn rebel will be there too. Any other suggestons?

[phonicsmonkey]

1. I made Riga my capital on turn 1 since it's more profitable, it's not by default.

Doesn't really matter to my point whether it's the capital or not - it's the best city TO has at the start and losing it would be a blow.

the boat thing was not of major consequence - the garrison with the 2 GBs could have beaten you I think (I can load to check that particular battle).

I think you'll find that when I besieged it in the first place there were only four units of pike there. I think the BGs came later once you reinforced it. Even if they were in there, have a crack at the battle, I think you'll find with all the javelins and arrows from that almost-full-cav stack it would be a very tough battle for 2 BG units.

Does the Grand Duke not have +movement as well?

Yes, but you can see his movement range on your turn whereas I cannot see yours, making it near-impossible to defend a fort line as your Hochmeister advances with catapults. This is why I think your proposed strategy for Lithuania is only part of the solution.

You should give the Liths a go next time instead of taking the safe option!

BTW I'm thinking of making a list of the top 10 reasons players lose in hotseats. I'll put "Neglected to scout with priests/spies" at #3 and "Forgot about Night Fighter" at #2 probably.
Neglected to protect his army with forts" a solid #1 IMO. Other gems like forgetting to build rams when sieging, neglecting diplomacy, being backstabbed, losing all your FMs in one battle and having a vital army turn rebel will be there too. Any other suggestons?

Lol, that's a good list. I'm guilty of forgetting about Night Fighter in two games recently...

"Recruiting in a full city" would be another one. I've lost count of the number of times people have done that and then their enemies have attacked the spare unit sitting next to the city and drawn out the garrison.

[Myth]

Can I see the enemy movement when the general is in a settlement or fort?

Again, that cav stack would not have taken Riga If I had just left the general with his order spearmen and archers inside, so overall attacking Riga made sense this time when I moved away but it doesn't in a general strategy if the TO is prepared IMO. As I said, they get enough armies up north to win any sally vs. Lithuania.

I took the TO for other reasons, not because it's the "safe" option. I will definitely play a different faction later on.

[Cecil XIX]

Denmark!

[Nightbringer]

Well, I've gone all in. I think my forces should be so far superior to Norways that I can be sure of victory, but I'll see.

poland up!
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...id=205&id=9932

[slysnake]

Well, I've gone all in. I think my forces should be so far superior to Norways that I can be sure of victory, but I'll see.

poland up!
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...id=205&id=9932

Will play my turn tonight...

[slysnake]

Norway!

WiC-Norway-9.sav

[Rougeman]

WiC-Teutons-10.sav

King Sean is trapped in his fortress, and he has sent messages to his allies for any aid which can be sent to save the brave men of Norway!

[phonicsmonkey]

WiC-Teutons-10.sav

King Sean is trapped in his fortress, and he has sent messages to his allies for any aid which can be sent to save the brave men of Norway!

Don't count on it - we have a non-interventionist group here. Their inaction will bring this game to an inevitable Denmark vs Teuton showdown

[Myth]

Now now, these assumptions are incorrect. I have no plans or desire to fight Nightbringer, In fact I want to give him trade which will boost both our incomes considerably.

Novgorod is up.

[Zim]

Plus, both could probably satisfy their faction's win conditions without ever running into the other. Instead of a fight it might be more of a race against the lesser factions.

[slysnake]

bump!

[Zim]

Sorry for the wait. I had a sub but he ended up being busy. Will be subbed or played by me within the day.