Lusotana Campaign

[The Stranger]

ok thanks

and i dont want them to use the secondary weapon actually, they have swords principal, spears secundairy (the gods know why... i guess to defend vs cav) but they switch to the spears in close quarter combat which is ofcourse idiotic. so now ive taken the spears out entirely.



based on my tests id say that elites are cost-equivalent to slightly more cost efficient to normal levy units but they would be more effective in special situations because of their better stamina, discipline and morale.

in chokepoints the elite units win hands down and are easily 2x as cost efficient as the normal levy units.

good example of my last test

the Dubosaverlacica (Ebherni Armoured Shock Infantry) vs 5 hoplitai haploi
that is 121 men vs 811 men
3639 recruitment cost and 910 upkeep vs 4045 recruitment cost and 1008 upkeep

the Dubosaverlacica won the battle with 664 kills vs 67 losses and even lost their general in the middle of the fight. They were actively engaging 4 haploi at all time and 5 after they lost their general yet they didnt rout and ultimately broke the 4 haploi to finish off the generals unit which didnt join the fight until the middle part like i said. i didnt use the javelin ability of the unit.

the hypaspistai had similar results vs 4 haploi but in that case the general unit did more fighting earlier on. i am sure the hypaspistai will have a better result if they only use swords and dont switch to the secundairy spear weapon.

the spartans lost in the open field but won in the chokepoint, very hard.


i have been testing vs haploi atm cuz they have a very round upkeep and cost number and i read somehwere that they were one of the most cost efficient levy infantry in the game. i might run some tests later vs sword units or vs medium to heavy units

also perhaps i should run it vs a human player (without any tactical manouevers) because i cannot try as the haploi because the ai for some reason hit and runs hypaspistai in certain cases...

[Arjos]

and i dont want them to use the secondary weapon actually, they have swords principal

Soon as they are engaged, right click again on their target and they will switch to swords...

As for your tests, AI most of the times recharges, or do something silly like keep on walking, plus you are sending AP units against non-armoured opponents in some cases: the results are flawned...

In EB there's no such thing as the "ultimate" unit, each has a field in which it excels, but against a certain opponent, even cheaper, it will utterly fail...

[The Stranger]

i tried and it doesnt work really, or i have to constantly click. the secundairy weapon is for close quarter combat and i think the switch is hardcoded. its just stupid to have a spear as a close quarter combat weapon if the sword is your principal weapon -_-

[Arjos]

its just stupid to have a spear as a close quarter combat weapon if the sword is your principal weapon -_-

Unfortunately it was an animation issue or something similar, hoplitai should have a xiphos as secondary weapon for example...

It was decided for certain units to have the sword as primary weapon, even though historically the spear was the primary one, because those units were often used in close-quarters, assaulting with their swords...

Again about the tests: using general units makes the units perform differently than their real stats, due to morale bonus etc...

[konny]

i tried and it doesnt work really, or i have to constantly click. the secundairy weapon is for close quarter combat and i think the switch is hardcoded. its just stupid to have a spear as a close quarter combat weapon if the sword is your principal weapon -_-

IRRC the entire unit uses secondary weapons when charging and when facing an opponent they had not been ordered to attack. This comes in handy when the enemy throws in additional cavalry, but it can become an anoyance when several enemy units are overlapping. In this case you cannot use the trick with the additional right click because they are always fighting another unit additionally what causes them to go back to the secondary weapon.

Additionally single figures switch to their secondary weapon when they had been knocked down, and stay with that weapon for the rest of the battle. That way, after some time of fighting, you'll have the entire front rank fighting with spears instead of swords.

All hardcoded issues, of course.

[athanaric]

When you finish all these tests, give us your final assessment on whether these elites are cost-effective or not. As far as I know, nobody has ever denied that they are not cost-effective in head up fights, but rather bring up points like "they can hold a critical point in the line" or "they never break" etc. But hey, if you can somehow achieve a different result, lets hear about it, and more power to you.

Sreni Pattya Yoddaha are definitely cost-efficective. Of course they can't hold a line because for that, you need more men with bigger shields. But they're by far one of the best units against phalanxes, especially in engagements that would make cheaper alternatives rout (which is common when dealing with phalangitai). Same for the other two, which I haven't used quite as much yet.

-

Also, thanks to The Stranger for conducting my tests for me. Maybe I'm allowed to give out a ballon?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[The Stranger]

Unfortunately it was an animation issue or something similar, hoplitai should have a xiphos as secondary weapon for example...

It was decided for certain units to have the sword as primary weapon, even though historically the spear was the primary one, because those units were often used in close-quarters, assaulting with their swords...

Again about the tests: using general units makes the units perform differently than to their real stats, due to morale bonus etc...

they only get a morale bonus cuz of the generals bodyguard but seeing as that they are elite and their morale is already much higher i think this can be disregarded. besides the generals morale bonus is a area bonus so the enemy gets a similar bonus since the general is in the direct area (and not on the other side of the battlefield)

[The Stranger]

Sreni Pattya Yoddaha are definitely cost-efficective. Of course they can't hold a line because for that, you need more men with bigger shields. But they're by far one of the best units against phalanxes, especially in engagements that would make cheaper alternatives rout (which is common when dealing with phalangitai). Same for the other two, which I haven't used quite as much yet.

-

Also, thanks to The Stranger for conducting my tests for me. Maybe I'm allowed to give out a ballon?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

perhaps someone can run some more tests, or look into the model/formation issue i have pointed out. im really surprised that the pattya win.

[Arjos]

i think this can be disregarded.

It has to do also with the general and officers (they have awesome stats), also their stamina is better...
Sometimes, almost by chance, the general could die, and in your test that unit would receive morale drops, it shouldn't get in an "objective" engagement...

In short they are not the same unit, in MP and all the people, who know a lot more about stats (it's gamey and boring to me :P), speak how generals render the data basically invalid...

As for the Srenis: 1v1 units, beside combat stats, spacing and mass influence immensely, that could be the answer...

[The Stranger]

allright, im willing to test vs a human and have the generals leave the field and then do the tests head on.

ofcourse i can see what nightmare is talking about, there are cases where upgrades are not really needed. like i am sure that if you manouver effectively you can annihilate 1 argyraspides with 2 pezhetairoi while the argyraspydes is almost 2x as expensive in upkeep (i dont know in recruitment cost). or just 1 on 1, i dont see any reason why you would want to pick the african heavy infantry over the heavy libyan infantry (the late version, not the early). sure the african heavys have 2 more morale, they have swords and a better charge but cost 1.75 times as much. and there are many more examples such as these (like why would you use spartan hoplites instead of epilektoi) and there is so little different between the elite african infantry and the sacred band, but the sacred band have 2 more moral for just 100 more recruitment cost and like 10 more upkeep. (thats why i am looking to mod the african elites into axewielding infantry instead of spearwielding ones, this atleast make their roles different and will give you a reason to use the african elites other than for show or history)

and if i play vs a human i can see my hypaspistai lose vs 4 haploi because he can pin me down with 3 haploi and use 1 to keep doing continuious charges in the rear doing much more damage than the envelopement that the ai does. yet at the same time i am equally sure that i will win with 1 hypaspistay and 4 haploi vs 8 haploi. because i can use my hypaspistai to pine down a large amount of units and use my haploi to do the same maneauvering and flanking charges. and there is no denying at all the in a chokepoint situation you will much rather want to have 1 spartan hoplite unit or 1 hypaspistay than 4 haploi even tho the cost and upkeep is similar.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I think Srenis have a looser formation but this allows them to wrap around the sides of units much easier, therefore doing what they do best, moving around the flanks and cutting stuff up. I think this is the reason for their success though I am not 100% sure. I have done some testing before for MP sake and it is tedious

[The Stranger]

the srenis formation is as lose as the casse one. but both are looser than the romphas but like i said, the casse and the rompha they shift their formation in a weird way and thus about 20 men are unused while the sreni is using all of them.

also for some reason the casse charge is not as devastating as you would expect seeing that their base attack is higher and the charge stat is higher as well.

does anyone know how i can mod the models/sprites? if i want to put the sreni model and attack etc on the rompha what must i do in order to achieve that (i knew all this a few years back but it has faded from memory :S)

[Nightmare]

I did extensive testing and it always came back that elites weren't worth it.

Just to throw some of my methodology at you:

In order to make tests as fair and accurate as possible, the bulk of my testing was testing troop types against the same troop types moving vertically up tier within the same faction. This eliminates question marks to the highest degree possible (counters, units against units of different types or different factions, etc) and gives the most accurate assessment, in my opinion.

To give you an example of what I'm talking about, you can assess Selucid pikes by testing Selucid levy pikes against a Selucid medium pike. The MP setup won't actually let you do this literally because it won't let you play the same faction against itself. But you can do the same thing by testing the Selucid levies against a Ptolemoi medium. Since these units are the same for the factions, it gives the same effect.

Just understand that the point with this methodology is to test a particular type of unit - say pikes - and to do it in such a way as to test it up the tier (levies against medium, levies against elite, mediums against elite, etc). This will give you the true measure of whether it is worth it to tech that particular unit up or not, because you have essentially pitted Selucid levy pikes against Selucid medium pikes and Selucid heavy pikes. Thus you pretty much know without a doubt which one is the most cost-effective. There aren't any question marks of cross-tier, or testing the unit against something that counters it, etc.

Anyway, unless there's an objection I recommend you use this methodology and then come back and report results.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

the srenis formation is as lose as the casse one. but both are looser than the romphas but like i said, the casse and the rompha they shift their formation in a weird way and thus about 20 men are unused while the sreni is using all of them.

also for some reason the casse charge is not as devastating as you would expect seeing that their base attack is higher and the charge stat is higher as well.

does anyone know how i can mod the models/sprites? if i want to put the sreni model and attack etc on the rompha what must i do in order to achieve that (i knew all this a few years back but it has faded from memory :S)

To get infantry charges to actually do something in EB you need to change the values to something much higher. Low lethalities on top of low base attacks usually mean a charge will often kill no one. If you start going into the 20's however, you may notice 4-5 men being killed in charges.

[The Stranger]

ye infantry charges arent that effective, cavalry charges are through the roof tho, but the cavalry has low base stat (higher lethality) with high charge stat. i dont know, ill do some more testing later.

[The Stranger]

I did extensive testing and it always came back that elites weren't worth it.

Just to throw some of my methodology at you:

In order to make tests as fair and accurate as possible, the bulk of my testing was testing troop types against the same troop types moving vertically up tier within the same faction. This eliminates question marks to the highest degree possible (counters, units against units of different types or different factions, etc) and gives the most accurate assessment, in my opinion.

To give you an example of what I'm talking about, you can assess Selucid pikes by testing Selucid levy pikes against a Selucid medium pike. The MP setup won't actually let you do this literally because it won't let you play the same faction against itself. But you can do the same thing by testing the Selucid levies against a Ptolemoi medium. Since these units are the same for the factions, it gives the same effect.

Just understand that the point with this methodology is to test a particular type of unit - say pikes - and to do it in such a way as to test it up the tier (levies against medium, levies against elite, mediums against elite, etc). This will give you the true measure of whether it is worth it to tech that particular unit up or not, because you have essentially pitted Selucid levy pikes against Selucid medium pikes and Selucid heavy pikes. Thus you pretty much know without a doubt which one is the most cost-effective. There aren't any question marks of cross-tier, or testing the unit against something that counters it, etc.

Anyway, unless there's an objection I recommend you use this methodology and then come back and report results.

well what do you think about what arjos said of the general?

i understand what you are saying tho and i did start my initial test using this method.

the spartan is a top tier of greeks and haploi is the levy. on open field 1 spartan lost vs 4 haploi but 2 spartans won vs 8 haploi. in a city street, and only frontal assault the spartans beat 4 haploi but i am sure they can take on atleast 6 haploi in that case.

hypaspistai is a tricky one because it is sword based, but it can be seen as a top tier version of the haploi (armed same fashion, with attack/defense balance being roughly similar) the hypaspistai won as well.

the dosidataskeli can be seen as a very armoured spartan hoplite and that was even far more superior. i am reluctant to try it vs the lower vershions of the lusotannan because the ai does repeated missile throwing in melee combat... perhaps i can disable the javelin throwing and then try again. tho undoubtly the caetrannan will do a good job because of the AP.

anyway, i will do some more testing in a bit. the spartan result still stands tho

i ran 4 tests, 2 times 1 vs 4 in the open both lost by the spartan. 1 time 2 vs 8 in the open won by the spartans, 1 time 1 vs 4 in a village also won by the spartans.

if you think being a general bodyguard unit doesnt really matter, then i will run some more of these tests.

[Arjos]

I was talking about objective failproof data ^^

Test away, years ago I spent even too much time doing this XD

But in the end in SP you can conquer the world with 2 FM units or anything lol
And MP, we use a different edu and there are rules etc...

[The Stranger]

ok here are the first results

Carthage:

Levy = Misteret Ezra'him (Poeni Citizen Militia)

Elite = Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim (Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry)

Because the I could not use the Levy of Carthage I used the Hoplitai Haploi which are actually even better for the same cost.

Results:

1 Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry vs 4 Hoplitai Haploi = 536 kills for Elite vs 73 kills for Levy
1 Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry vs 4 Hoplitai Haploi = 561 kills for Elite vs 71 kills for Levy
1 Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry vs 5 Hoplitai Haploi = 692 kills for Elite vs 79 kills for Levy
1 Elite Liby-Phoenician Infantry vs 5 Hoplitai Haploi = 730 kills for Elite vs 76 kills for Levy

Specifics:

Map is Grassy Flatlands.

Every time I started with 2 Elite units and immediately marched my general unit off the field, this way the general will not have an impact on my side, the AI still has a general so if what Arjos says is true, these results should favor the Elite even more.

In the 1 vs 4 battles I was enveloped by 3 units and surrounded completely, with the general unit performing charge-ins all the the time. When the rest routed it was my 1 Elite vs the 1 Levy general unit.

In the 1 vs 5 battles I was enveloped by 4 units and surrounded completely, but the general unit remained idle for most of the time. When the rest routed it was my 1 Elite vs the 1 Levy general unit.

Judgment:

Elite wins this hands down, definitely when considering that the Carthaginian levy is worse than the Haploi.

[Kull]

I did extensive testing and it always came back that elites weren't worth it.

Just understand that the point with this methodology is to test a particular type of unit - say pikes - and to do it in such a way as to test it up the tier (levies against medium, levies against elite, mediums against elite, etc). This will give you the true measure of whether it is worth it to tech that particular unit up or not, because you have essentially pitted Selucid levy pikes against Selucid medium pikes and Selucid heavy pikes. Thus you pretty much know without a doubt which one is the most cost-effective. There aren't any question marks of cross-tier, or testing the unit against something that counters it, etc.

Anyway, unless there's an objection I recommend you use this methodology and then come back and report results.

OK:

1) Ran nine tests of one Human Levy Phalanx against one CPU Medium Phalanx (various combinations from 6 different factions to make sure that wasn't a contributing factor). Battle on level grassy terrain at Medium Difficulty. Result? 1 Levy win vs. 8 Medium wins

2) Ran nine more tests of one Human Medium Phalanx against one CPU Levy Phalanx (various combinations from 6 different factions to make sure that wasn't a contributing factor). Battle on level grassy terrain at Medium Difficulty. Result? 7 Medium wins vs. 2 Levy wins

Whether that proves it's "worth it" to tech up is debateable since good tactical play will almost always offset unit quality differences (as the EB quote says, Army of sheep led by a lion beats an army of lions led by a sheep), but you can't dispute that all else being equal, Mediums will usually defeat Levies.

[The Stranger]

you are not taking in account actual cost of recruitment and upkeep. there is no doubt that 1 single elite is worth more than 1 single levy, but 1 single elite can be worth as much as 4 single levies. and the question is, can 1 elite take on 4 single levies. my view is that they can and i think i have the stats to prove it.

[The Stranger]

Koinon Hellenon:

Levy = Hoplitai Haploi

Elite = Epilektoi Hoplitai

Results:

1 Epilektoi Hoplitai vs 4 Hoplitai Haploi = 480 kills for Elite vs 59 kills for Levy (Levy general was killed > big rout)
1 Epilektoi Hoplitai vs 4 Hoplitai Haploi = 558 kills for Elite vs 50 kills for Levy
1 Epilektoi Hoplitai vs 5 Hoplitai Haploi = 510 kills for Elite vs 122 kills for Levy (Epilektoi broke at 10 > fight to death)
1 Epilektoi Hoplitai vs 5 Hoplitai Haploi = 697 kills for Elite vs 88 kills for Levy

Specifics:

Map is Grassy Flatlands.

In the 1 vs 4 battles I started with 2 Elite units and immediately marched my general unit off the field, this way the general will not have an impact on my side, the AI still has a general so if what Arjos says is true, these results should favor the Elite even more. However the Epilektoi Hoplitai for some reason are more prone to the morale penalty of the General leaving the field and broke everytime they got surrounded by 5 Haploi. So I decided to leave the general on the field but well out of range. The AI ignored my general unit and the rest of the fighting continued normally.

In the 1 vs 4 battles I was enveloped by 3 units and surrounded completely, with the general unit performing charge-ins all the the time. When the rest routed it was my 1 Elite vs the 1 Levy general unit.

In the 1 vs 5 battles I was enveloped by 5 units and surrounded completely, the general unit actively engaged combat for 75% of the battle, only leaving for charge-ins at the end when it was already lost.

Judgment:

Some weird results. The Epilektoi do better than the Elite Africans vs 4 Haploi but do quite alot worse vs 5. I perhaps the reason is the total envelopement by 5 units, I am not sure. While both have 16 morale, the Epilektoi broke while the Elite Africans did not. Regardless, the Elite unit still won this, and I am sure that on choke points it is no contest at all.



Arche Seleukeia:

Levy = Pantodapoi

Elite = Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou (Hellenic Elite Spearmen)

Results:

1 Thorakitai vs 5 Pantodapoi = 708 kills for Elite vs 53 kills for Levy (Big rout started, general was not killed)
1 Thorakitai vs 5 Pantodapoi = 824 kills for Elite vs 70 kills for Levy (I had 80 left when 4 units routed, I lost another 30 in the fight after 3 of them rallied because of asymmetry in positions and charges etc.)
1 Thorakitai vs 6 Pantodapoi = 888 kills for Elite vs 50 kills for Levy
1 Thorakitai vs 6 Pantodapoi= 1160 kills for Elite vs 90 kills for Levy

Specifics:

Map is Grassy Flatlands.

In all battles I started with 2 Elite units and immediately marched my general unit off the field, this way the general will not have an impact on my side, the AI still has a general so if what Arjos says is true, these results should favor the Elite even more.

I did not use the javelin ability of the Thorakitai.

In the 1 vs 5 battles I was enveloped by 4 units and surrounded completely, with the general unit performing charge-ins all the the time. When the rest routed it was my 1 Elite vs the 1 Levy general unit.

In the first 1 vs 6 battle I was enveloped by 5 units and but not completely surrounded, there was a small gap in the back, the general unit did not engage untill the other units had routed. They did rally and return but I lost maybe 10 more soldiers.
The second 1 vs 6 battle I was enveloped by 5 units and this time completely surrounded. the general unit did not engage untill the other units had routed. In the end my unit had gained 4 chevrons.

Judgment:

Epic results. 5 Pantodapoi cost slightly more in recruitment and upkeep than 1 Thorakitai, but 6 is alot out of proportion and still the Thorakitai win the battle. In a chokepoint this will be a total massacre. The Pantodapoi do rout faster than the Haploi and they have worse stats but 50% more soldiers.


Anyway, I can continue this but I think these few stats show that the elite units definitly do a great job. I might do some barbarian factions next and then switch to medium vs elite.

[seleucid empire]

i get the feeling nightmare doesnt really finish his campaigns. he seems to be able to retrain his levies everywhere and thats why he likes them. in my end game campaigns i really need those elites because im fighting far from my homeland and my armies get depleted more slowly with elites

[seleucid empire]

sorry for doublepost but this is especially true for hellenistic campaigns, in nightmares previous threads he discusses mostly getai, casse or KH. Getai and Casse are barbarion factions and have regional mics and some factional ones all over europe, making access to levies easier. KH has cities spread all over the map so same thing. but if he played an hellenistic faction into the lat game, he will see the usefulness of elites

[Basileus_ton_Basileon]

i get the feeling nightmare doesnt really finish his campaigns. he seems to be able to retrain his levies everywhere and thats why he likes them. in my end game campaigns i really need those elites because im fighting far from my homeland and my armies get depleted more slowly with elites

I concur, lower quality troops tend to take grislier casualties. I for a rule tend to take a healthy balance of elite, medium and low quality troops (2:5:3) for my campaigning armies abroad. The levies serve as nice cannon fodder to soak up the casualties (which can be easily replaced by mercs and locals). In hellenistic armies that means they do a lot of skirmishing; in celtic armies they tend to stand in the middle of the line (bolstered by the elites in morale) and take up the grind. Medium quality troops (ie Thuerophoroi or Bataroas) tend to make excellent flank guards and/or flankers.

[The Stranger]

I think hes talking from MP perspective but im not sure.


anyway ran some unoffcial tests (due to problems with javelins and secundairy weapons) with iberian and celtic elites but they are considerably worse, or perhaps the barbarian levies are considerably better (atleast bigger).

The solduros lost vs 4 lugoae both using only swords (primary) and only spears (secundary). but they did beat 5 hoplitai haploi (using only their primary), tho they did a worse job than the epilektoi and the elite africans.

however the dosidataskeli is one of the most effective ive seen so far. easily 2x as cost effective vs hoplitai haploi and pantodapoi. and that is in the open field, on a chokepoint i am sure they can stop 4x. i am aware they are taken out but the Thorakitai Agemata of Arche Seleukeia is only slightly inferior.

here is the result of 1 dosidataskeli (with general and i did use my javelins this time) vs 10 hoplitai haploi (about 2x more expensive in upkeep and recruitment). i was completely surrounded = 1412 kills vs 85 losses




and this is a city defense of 3 dosidataskeli (364 men) vs 60 hoplitai haploi (9723 men). That is about 4x their cost in upkeep and recruitment.

Result: Close Defeat (because I got pushed off the city square, I wouldve lost but couldve killed more) = 6945 kills and 328 losses.

Now unless anyone can defend a village from 3 sides with 12 hoplitai haploi (same cost as 3 dosidataskeli) I am going to declare the Dosidataskeli SUPERCOSTEFFECTIVE to the point of INSANITY.

[Nightmare]

@The Stranger, I must say you got very interesting results with your tests. You even got some cost-effectiveness out of spartans. I tested them as well, and if anything I found them to be one of the most overpriced, cost-inefficient units in the game.

If you really want a laugh, take a unit of elite dacian skirmishers and throw them at a single unit of triari. Seeing the price of the elite dacian skirmishers for the very first time caused me to literally spray coffee on my monitor, but at any rate a single unit of triari, not even adjusted for cost (triari are significantly cheaper) beats an elite dacian skirmisher unit. Or, I should say, with my testing this happened. With your testing I wouldn't be surprised if you came back and said it was a slaughterfest the other way around.

I'm not sure why you are getting different results. Your methodology seem appropriate enough. I wonder if unit sizes has anything to do with it (my testing was always on 'normal' sizes)? For the most part, I was never challenged by others on the cost-ineffectiveness of elite units. Everyone seemed to agree on that, more or less. The debate always seemed to be about other things. For instance, folks said it had to be set up that way to keep the player from spamming elites and playing ahistorically.

At any rate, if you can get different results and better cost-effectiveness out of elites than I can, then good for you, and more power to you. Maybe you just have a magic touch.

@Kull, of course 1 levy will always lose to 1 elite. You have to test "cost for cost," i.e. throw the same amount of cost at the elites, which means you might have to throw 2, 3, 4, or more units of levies at one elite unit.

Whether that proves it's "worth it" to tech up is debateable since good tactical play will almost always offset unit quality differences (as the EB quote says, Army of sheep led by a lion beats an army of lions led by a sheep

Of course good tactical play with a crappier unit can offset the advantage of a superior unit. The question is whether you can improve your good tactical play even more by using cost-effective vs. cost-ineffective units (i.e. good tactical play with cost-effective units should trump good tactical play with cost-ineffective units).

Of course while testing this stuff you don't want to use good tactical play to offset anything as that will skew the result. You pretty much just want to throw the units at each other and see what happens. The way The Stranger has been testing it seems fine, as he just does a generic surround and then "hands off" for one test, and then does an additional chokepoint test.

Anyway, thanks for testing, Stranger. And remember, whatever doesn't kill you makes you... stranger, heh.

[The Stranger]

well like i said, the price for roman units seems really weird, thats why we got on this entire track in the first place, they are out of balance with all the other units in eb, that are just so much cheaper. perhaps its because the romans do not have any true elite units such as the greek/easterns have their royal guards, the steppe civs have their elite cavalry and the barbarians get some really nasty heavy infantry. the romans get antesigni which is nice but doesnt compare. Then there is the praetorians but they lack the elite morale and attack power. Their core infantry is very good but they do not have much else to rely upon. Even triarii are mediocre at best. And its funny that Roman units kinda get worse from camillan to polybian and arguably also from polybian to Marian XD

Spartans lose vs the Haploi, I dont know why, they are only 1 armour lower than Epilektoi and Epilektoi do pretty good. But ye on a chokepoint elite are just always going to be cost efficient.

As for Komatai Skirmishers vs Triarii you shouldnt forget that the komatai are intended as a screening medium infantry while triarii is a heavy infantry. but nonetheless looking at stats (both unit stats and prices), komatai should win although it will be a close match. Did you use the javelins?

Im not going to say that every "elite" is cost effective, and historically definitly not all were. But I think there are a good few which are, and most of them are the Greek/Diadocchi/Carthaginian elite units (allthough it is hard to test the eastern ones because its cavalry and relies on archery alot and its also hard to test the barbarians because they rely on javelins alot...) Also Lugoae for some reason are really resilliant to beat, they are supercheap and pretty good... testing against them might get different results. Sofar only the Dosidataskeli has beat 4 lugoae...

And perhaps huge settings does get different results, Ill try it one time later.

hehe...

Komatai vs Polybian Triarii = 151 kills Komatai vs 98 Kills Triarii

But the Triarii are definitly more cost efficient because it should actually be 1 Komatai vs 2 Triarii in terms of cost and upkeep.


But lets do some math, on huge settings

1 komatai is worth 2968/120 = 24,5
1 Triarii is worth 1524/160 = 9,5

160 Triarii killed 2401 mnai worth of Komatai
120 Komatai killed 1434 mnai worth of Triarii

My judgment: Komatai either need a decrease in price or an increase in unit number and they also need the fast moving trait. (hmm they are supposed to have it, their skeleton says fast_skirmisher etc but for some reason they dont get it in game, neither do those archers :S...)


Anyway this only shows that Roman Units are ridicilous and very cost effient... The camillan triarii is only 2 attack and defense worse than the Epilektoi but half the cost 0_0


Ye its as I feared, vs the medium infantry the Elites get into trouble, the medium infantry (hoplitai, scutarii, triarii, principes etc) are more cost efficient than the elites, but at the same time, I doubt the medium infantry is capable of holding the line and a chokepoint vs a big mass of cheap units the same way the elites do.

2 Polybian triarii = Same recruitment cost as 4 haploi and 1 Epilektoi/Elite African

2 Triarii vs 4 Haploi = 538 Medium kills vs 245 Levy kills (1 of Triarii got surrounded, destroyed and routed, the other one won the battle alone when about 70% of the haploi were dead)
2 Triarii vs 4 Haploi = 459 Medium kills vs 103 Levy Kills (Now both got attacked from two sides but no complete surrounds. Significant better result)

2 Triarii vs 5 Haploi = Triarii broke.



1 thing I have noticed is that usually the kill percentage is roughly similar. 27% of army dead vs 24 % of army dead and it keeps rising at the same rate. It was the same with the Dosidataskeli, utill like 70% and then the Dosidataskeli couldn't keep up anymore.


And yes, normal settings will get different results than Huge. I think this is because the breaking point for units is still around 10 units for elites. And you just reach that point so much faster on normal unit scale...

[d'Arthez]

What will also matter is that on huge, a unit covers more space.

Consequently, if you have more people available, they will not always find a way to actively engage with foes. Playing on smaller scale probably favours the cheaper units and ranged units to a ridiculous extent.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Lugoae, their Germanic brethren, and the Iberian and Thracian Levies aren't all that bad. The Thracian and Iberian ones even get a few javelins so testing against these units won't net quite the same results. The crappiest units in game are Pantodapoi, there is really no question about that so they might be who you want to run your tests against. Levy Hoplites actually get a decent amount of armor, so units that rely more on longswords than ap will fare worse against them then against Pantadapoi.

And yeah, elites might massacre levy troops that are poorly armed, but medium infantry like Bataroas, Hastati, Thureophoroi, etc will clearly be more cost efficient. If you go with light infantry with ap axes such as Eastern Axemen, they will destroy elites in terms of cost efficiency. However each unit has its own specific role in EB, something which makes the game nearly infinitely replayable and still sucks me in even to this day.

[The Stranger]

ye

tho there are a few elites who can stand up to the challenge, the 2handed elites, the dosidataskeli and thorakitai agemata and the gaesatae.