Taping the Police

[a completely inoffensive name]

And yet, the vast majority would rather support the sociopaths among them than cross the thin blue line.

This is not as detestable as it seems when you put it like that. These men are putting their life on the line every day together. Sure, there really isn't that much danger is suburban america, but a camaraderie grows between officers who experience the same danger, the same chaos together. No one knows what the next traffic stop will bring about.

This is not to excuse their defense of the abusers within the police force, but if we don't keep in mind the bond that police work forms between those who wear the badge, we are not getting the full picture. We might as well be asking a man to condemn his brother. The bonds are strong and they muddle with logic. Humans are flawed like that, and it is important not to attribute malice to actions that stem from such flaws.

[Kralizec]

This is not as detestable as it seems when you put it like that. These men are putting their life on the line every day together. Sure, there really isn't that much danger is suburban america, but a camaraderie grows between officers who experience the same danger, the same chaos together. No one knows what the next traffic stop will bring about.

This is not to excuse their defense of the abusers within the police force, but if we don't keep in mind the bond that police work forms between those who wear the badge, we are not getting the full picture. We might as well be asking a man to condemn his brother. The bonds are strong and they muddle with logic. Humans are flawed like that, and it is important not to attribute malice to actions that stem from such flaws.

Call me a cynic, but I wonder how much of this line of reasoning is true and how much of it is romanticism. And yes, humans are flawed like that, and it should be expected that every now and then there's the odd case of someone covering up for his collegue. I gather though that the outrage is largely because it appears to be systemic (though I admit, I rarely read the police abuse thread)

[Tellos Athenaios]

99 percent of the police make the rest of them look bad.

In the context of state surveillance/state terrorism (and censorship). At 55:49 into this talk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX46Qv_b7F4

(Worth watching in its entirety.)

[Crazed Rabbit]

From: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...police-officer

Aides to Cook County State's Attorney Anita Alvarez opposed the legislation, saying the issue still needs to play out in the courts. The Illinois Fraternal Order of Police warned the bill could scare witnesses who fear their conversations at a crime scene would be monitored by organized crime.

Even so, Chicago police Superintendent Garry McCarthy recently told the Tribune he supports letting people record the police and vice versa.

From:http://www.mysuburbanlife.com/forest...ouse-committee

Patrick Coughlin, deputy chief of the narcotics bureau in the Cook County state’s attorney’s office, disagreed.

“Because of the Illinois eavesdropping statute, officers cannot record that conversation without a court order. This is not leveling the playing field,” Coughlin said. “This is giving more rights to private citizens to collect evidence of a crime than officers have.”

One concern of law enforcement groups is that the legislation would allow criminals and gang members to record the police’s interactions with potential witnesses and informants.

“It may have a chilling effect on victims coming forward if they know that a person that’s not a member to that conversation can come up and record whatever they say to the police,” Coughlin said.

In the past five years, only 10 people have been convicted of recording police officers without their consent in Cook County, and only two of the incidents occurred in public places, he said.

CR

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Hmm, that's a reasonable point about the witnesses.

[Vladimir]

Hmm, that's a reasonable point about the witnesses.

No it's not. Take the person inside, around the corner, inside the car, or wherever. We're not talking about stalking cops on patrol but recording actions during an incident.

[Major Robert Dump]

A couple of what-ifs does not justify a total abridgement of our civil rights. There are still a significant amount of police departments in small towns and suburbs that do not even employ dash cams. There is no excuse for this. No one made them be a cop.

[Whacker]

You can't fix this problem by changing the rules. The cops have to have the ability to enforce the peace, and it should not be compromised because of a few bad apples.

The solution is in the training, and actual culture of the police. Instead of hiring people who are trigger-happy reactionaries (seemingly the only kind they hire here in Eugene, which is ironic since Eugene is a liberal hotbed) perhaps the largest value when selecting new officers should be a good attitude and a willingness to put the citzenry first no matter what.

The moment a cop thinks his life is more important than even the criminals he is apprehending, he's gone down the wrong track and is no longer really fit for the job. Cops should be paragons of selfless virtue, and we as citizens should demand nothing less. The trend, in some departments at least, of turning the Police into the last bastion of far-right sentiment (which is exactly what they are here) only serves to create cops that feel hostile and even hateful towards the ones they are supposed to be protecting.

Just do a quick google search of Eugene, OR Police Abuses or anything similar, and you'll see a disproportionately large amount of incidents for the relatively small size of the city (about 250,000 people). I refuse to believe this is an isolated case, but it might be. Texas State Troopers have always been very pleasant in my experience, so I'm not trying to paint all cops a certain color, but I do believe the trend of hostility is a true one and the most appropriate way to deal with it is by trying to change the culture of the police. Anything else will only be treating the symptoms.

The solution isn't training, it's a complete and total re-write of the mindset of the police force. American cops generally have egos and tend to go on power trips when their "authority" is challenged. Anyone who says otherwise can go look at CR's police abuse thread for a very small sample of the bigger problem. I've never been arrested, handcuffed, questioned, put in the back of a cop car, or anything like that, am a 30ish tax-paying law-abiding citizen of the US... and I utterly detest cops. Many would argue that the perception of police has been compromised over the years by things such as "gangsta rap" and it's demonizing of the police. I firmly believe it's entirely their own fault for how they conduct themselves, again CR's thread is just a small piece of the pie. Consequently, with very low public opinion and support, cops are going to harden and train themselves for the worst, and push for legislation that essentially legalizes their abilities to abuse civil rights with impunity.

Your middle point hit the nail on the head. The police mentality needs to be swung firmly back towards the mindset of public service. Hence the damn motto, To Protect and to Serve. Stop treating every person they interact with like a damn criminal. Stop beating people senseless for no reason whatsoever. Strongly enforce accountability, I think this is the biggest one. Too often when cops cross the line, the state will do whatever to protect them, and I think that's probably the biggest single contributor to their increasingly negative public image. When someone is put in a position of trust such as that where the potential for abusing someone's civil rights and liberties, even taking their life under the right circumstances, needs to be held to the absolute, utmost rigid scrutiny and accountability. Cops should always understand that IF they cross certain lines they WILL be held accountable fully, all the way up to hard extensive jail time and even the death penalty. (that cop who killed the guy in Cali when he was already fully restrained on the ground and not resisting comes to mind) The so-called blue wall of silence needs to be permanently and utterly destroyed.

I've seen plenty of videos of western European cops handling grown people throwing fits like they are 3 year olds. People stomping, cursing, screaming, etc with the police in near total serenity and relaxation, eventually diffusing the situation safely for everyone involved without any tazings, beatings, or shootings. When cops in the US can get back to doing that, acting as true public servants and handling themselves and others with dignity and respect, then our faith in them and their image will be restored.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

No it's not. Take the person inside, around the corner, inside the car, or wherever. We're not talking about stalking cops on patrol but recording actions during an incident.

What did you think I meant by "reasonable point"? I couldn't figure out what CR was trying to say by posting it since he usually takes an anti-police line.

I've seen plenty of videos of western European cops handling grown people throwing fits like they are 3 year olds. People stomping, cursing, screaming, etc with the police in near total serenity and relaxation, eventually diffusing the situation safely for everyone involved without any tazings, beatings, or shootings. When cops in the US can get back to doing that, acting as true public servants and handling themselves and others with dignity and respect, then our faith in them and their image will be restored.

Maybe we could get you to testify before congress with that kind of expertise. "You see, I've watched youtube videos...dozens of them! And so I firmly believe it's entirely their fault"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNNz5kl4w-A

[Ironside]

Hmm, that's a reasonable point about the witnesses.

It's quite a low probabillity. To record, you'll need to be quite close and obviously listening in anyway. Maybe with proffessional suvelience gear, but that's special case.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Call me a cynic, but I wonder how much of this line of reasoning is true and how much of it is romanticism. And yes, humans are flawed like that, and it should be expected that every now and then there's the odd case of someone covering up for his collegue. I gather though that the outrage is largely because it appears to be systemic (though I admit, I rarely read the police abuse thread)

Well, I gather we would have a lot more information on the matter if someone on the org was an actual cop. Unfortunately, the police abuse thread may have scared off anyone who was a cop, when on the first page CR is posting in 20 point font about how all cops are evil.

[ICantSpellDawg]

In NY State, all public conversations can have the audio or video recorded in an unobtrusive way. Public servants act in the public light when not in personal meetings or in the bathroom (or things like that), so it isn't an issue here. Of course it is crap to prosecute for this stuff, cops want to get away with breaking the law. I'd argue that it is why a large number of police are police in the first place. Not the majority, but the allure to abuse excessive authority is compelling for quite a few people.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I posted the links I did to show people who were arguing against being able to tape the police. I believe their excuses hold no water.

In Baltimore, less than a day after police are given an order saying people have an absolute right to record cops, some cops threaten to arrest a man recording them - for 'loitering'.

The police union says the officers acted appropriately and professionally; the ACLU says it shows there's more work to be done.

There's a lot of work to be done in forcing cops everywhere to accept that they can be recorded.

CR

[Vladimir]

I posted the links I did to show people who were arguing against being able to tape the police. I believe their excuses hold no water.

In Baltimore, less than a day after police are given an order saying people have an absolute right to record cops, some cops threaten to arrest a man recording them - for 'loitering'.



There's a lot of work to be done in forcing cops everywhere to accept that they can be recorded.

CR

Maryland cops are really touchy about that. Maybe the governor should just tax all video recordings. He wants to tax everything else.

[Strike For The South]

We need to tape cops, because an alarming amount of them are frustrated little men, who like a predator go into a feeding frenzy when finally confronted with a completely vulnerable victim. They love the absolute power. It is dangerous to be a drug addict, or to be dirt poor, or to be severely physically handicapped. The police and the justice system prey on you, both are full of nasty little men who will go berserk when they discover they can have absolute power over you.