Koran Burning Craziness

[PanzerJaeger]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

By The Wall Street Journal

February 23, 2012

KABUL -- Afghanistan is bracing for intensifying protests, as outrage over the burning of Korans at a US military base led to the first American casualties Thursday and President Barack Obama vowed to hold coalition officials accountable for the "inadvertent" sacrilege.

The three days of protests against Monday's burning of Islam's holiest book at the Bagram Air Field already have resulted in the deaths of at least 10 Afghans. Demonstrations are expected to escalate Friday, when clerics at mosques around the country are expected to dedicate their weekly sermons to denouncing the incident.

The deadly demonstrations that spread across Kabul and Afghanistan's provinces this week have targeted US and coalition military bases, Afghan government buildings and other symbols of Western presence.

Hours after the Taliban called on Afghans to kill Western forces in Afghanistan to avenge the insult Thursday, an Afghan soldier opened fire on US troops at a base in the eastern Nangarhar Province, according to Afghan officials.

Two American troops were killed before the Afghan soldier escaped into a crowd of protesters demonstrating outside the base in the province's Khogyani district.

This week's demonstrations erupted after coalition soldiers brought a truckload of Korans and other Islamic books from a Bagram detention facility to an incinerator at the base. Afghan workers at the base said they stopped the soldiers from destroying the books, but not before several copies of the Koran had been partially burned.

US military officials have launched an investigation to try to determine why the soldiers tried to burn Islamic materials. These books, according to some US officials, were slated for destruction because they contained "extremist literature" and prisoners' "clandestine communications."

Last April, after a Florida pastor oversaw the burning of a Koran, angry demonstrators in northern Afghanistan stormed a United Nations compound following Friday prayers, killing seven foreigners.

The memories of last year's attack resonated this week as Western embassies, aid groups and the US military imposed strict travel bans on their staffs and warned foreigners to steer clear of protests. The American Embassy in Kabul extended travel restrictions to northern Afghanistan on Thursday.

In another attempt to assuage the anger, Obama apologized to Karzai for what he called inadvertent attempts to burn the Islamic books, in a personal letter delivered Thursday by the US ambassador to Kabul, Ryan Crocker.

"I assure you that we will take appropriate steps to avoid any recurrence, to include holding accountable those responsible," Obama said in the letter, according to Karzai's office.

Karzai, who issued an appeal for calm Wednesday that appeared to have little immediate effect, met with hundreds of Afghan lawmakers to discuss the crisis Thursday. Some of these lawmakers had called for a "jihad," or holy war, against the US on Wednesday.

The Taliban has sought to capitalize on the widespread outrage by calling for Afghans across the country to attack Western bases, target military convoys and kill soldiers. Earlier this week, it also urged Afghan soldiers to turn their weapons on their Western counterparts.

At the same time, the latest Taliban statement affirmed the insurgent group's support for continuing negotiations with the US to open a Taliban political office in Qatar.

Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...pe_hpp_LEFTTop

This is just surreal. The above story reads like an Onion article. There wasn't this much outrage when it was discovered that a group of US soldiers made a hobby out of killing Afghan civilians, but somebody checks the wrong box at garbage pick-up and the nation descends into chaos.

I think this is a microcosm of the whole effort in Afghanistan. These people's priorities are just so completely stu... idio... cra... different than our own that they will never be dragged into the 21st century.

[rvg]

Yeah, we really need to get out of there. Let them go back to the middle ages.

[rory_20_uk]

Amen.

There is no middle ground with such people. Leave 'em to it. Maybe fellow Muslim countries can see where they're coming from.

[Kralizec]

To be honest, allthough the reaction is certainly overblown, it's well known that muslims are extremely sensitive when it comes to the physical destruction of Qu'ran books. As if they were religious idols or something.
Trying to dump a load of Qu'rans into a furnace suggests a serious lack of judgement.

[rvg]

...Trying to dump a load of Qu'rans into a furnace suggests a serious lack of judgement.

But what does trying to kill people over that suggest?

[CBR]

Western decadency always wins, it just takes time.

Smartbombs on the nutters and smartphones for the wimenz.

[rvg]

Smartbombs on the nutters and smartphones for the wimenz.

Smartbombs are too expensive. Good old fashioned carpet bombings would be cheaper and would have a greater effect. The beauty of violence, fear and pain is that it is universally understood and understood well. We need to remind them that we should be feared, moreso than the Taliban. Yeah, Taliban can go in chop a few heads, we can do more than that.

[rory_20_uk]

To be honest, allthough the reaction is certainly overblown, it's well known that muslims are extremely sensitive when it comes to the physical destruction of Qu'ran books. As if they were religious idols or something.
Trying to dump a load of Qu'rans into a furnace suggests a serious lack of judgement.

Boo hoo, get over it.

Lopping off limbs / stoning people to death / making them wear odd clothing irks me, but I don't think it's OK to kill people over it. If they want tolerance, they have to provide it to others.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well boo hoo, the Taliban don't want tolerance. They are probably quite happy for the USA to bugger off and go bother someone else, whilst they take over and stone some more people to death for good measure.

Yes this is serious lack of judgment because the idiots who did it should've realised that in Afghanistan there would be hell to pay for this, and not with stern notes from their command but with the blood of their fellow soldiers who are going to get killed “in revenge”. It's utterly irrelevant what you or I think, it matters a great deal more how this is spun by the Taliban.

[rory_20_uk]

If the locals would rather be stoned by the Taliban, then so be it. Their call. I'll not loose a wink of sleep over it. We are not here to save them from themselves.

[Centurion1]

im so sick of these ignorant savages. because that is what they are they are freaking savages and they are as ignorant as you can find in todays world.

was it wrong to burn their holy books? why yes of course though if what they said was true about clandestine communications they have to be disposed of. Speaking of that lets discuss the absolute hypocrisy if these ******* are using the koran for secret conversation.

I would run this war like Genghis Khan did so damn fast.....

[CBR]

If I'm deciphering the tables correctly then they might cost 5 to 10 times more than the dumb version. So, unless you don't know where the target is, I don't think you save any money using dumb bombs.

It might create more shock and awe but it also requires more planes to do the job, and they are becoming hideously expensive and therefore fewer in numbers.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

"Why are we bothering with these losers?" is my reaction.

How widespread are the demonstrations?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"Why are we bothering with these losers?" is my reaction.

How widespread are the demonstrations?

Countrywide, but that doesn't mean everyone is joining in. This isn't purely a religious issue, its much more about how stupidly the Americans have handled things over there - this is just a touch paper.

Think about it: How would people react in the US if a UN sanctioned Muslim peacekeeping force burned fifty Bibles in a waste pit?

Badly?

Now imagine the US' economy is non functional, the peacekeepers have been there over a decade and you've got no infastructure because one side or t'other is always blowing it up.

You'd be pretty narked, wouldn't you?

[Papewaio]

Well historically speaking on the classiest nicest regimes have ever participated in book burning.

=][=

I'm pretty sure of the many methods of disposing of books burning them is pretty low on the list of winning hearts and minds.

It's the ideological equivalent of salting the earth of your enemy. You've basically said their most precious ideas mean spit to you and you're quite happy to destroy them.

What is the literacy rate in Afghanistan? Aside from the Qur'an how many books do you think the typically house has?

Nero playing his harp while Rome burnt and the burning of Alexandria Library is still remembered to this day. Burning of books has never been seen as a great thing to do. Book burnings is generally done by small minded tyrannical regimes so scared of ideological opponents that they feel the need to stop the spread of their ideas.

Why on earth associate oneself with those by doing such a stupid thing?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Countrywide, but that doesn't mean everyone is joining in. This isn't purely a religious issue, its much more about how stupidly the Americans have handled things over there - this is just a touch paper.

Think about it: How would people react in the US if a UN sanctioned Muslim peacekeeping force burned fifty Bibles in a waste pit?

Badly?

Now imagine the US' economy is non functional, the peacekeepers have been there over a decade and you've got no infastructure because one side or t'other is always blowing it up.

You'd be pretty narked, wouldn't you?

No.

Well historically speaking on the classiest nicest regimes have ever participated in book burning.

=][=

I'm pretty sure of the many methods of disposing of books burning them is pretty low on the list of winning hearts and minds.

It's the ideological equivalent of salting the earth of your enemy. You've basically said their most precious ideas mean spit to you and you're quite happy to destroy them.

What is the literacy rate in Afghanistan? Aside from the Qur'an how many books do you think the typically house has?

Nero playing his harp while Rome burnt and the burning of Alexandria Library is still remembered to this day. Burning of books has never been seen as a great thing to do. Book burnings is generally done by small minded tyrannical regimes so scared of ideological opponents that they feel the need to stop the spread of their ideas.

Why on earth associate oneself with those by doing such a stupid thing?

Book burning is generally done by college students getting rid of a textbook.

Is the united states trying to wipe out the Koran by burning it? Was anyone? I don't think they are protesting against that at all.

Why don't YOU take some responsibility and not associate it with small minded tyrannical regimes yourself.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No.



Book burning is generally done by college students getting rid of a textbook.

Is the united states trying to wipe out the Koran by burning it? Was anyone? I don't think they are protesting against that at all.

Why don't YOU take some responsibility and not associate it with small minded tyrannical regimes yourself.

So, basically, American culture is so wasteful you burn books - rather than donating them to charity, or selling them to incoming students?

Ye Gods!

No wonder you don't get it.

Pape is right, book burning is universally recognised as an ideaological activity, except by Americans, and is NEVER taken well.

[Veho Nex]

Well historically speaking on the classiest nicest regimes have ever participated in book burning.

=][=

I'm pretty sure of the many methods of disposing of books burning them is pretty low on the list of winning hearts and minds.

It's the ideological equivalent of salting the earth of your enemy. You've basically said their most precious ideas mean spit to you and you're quite happy to destroy them.

What is the literacy rate in Afghanistan? Aside from the Qur'an how many books do you think the typically house has?

Nero playing his harp while Rome burnt and the burning of Alexandria Library is still remembered to this day. Burning of books has never been seen as a great thing to do. Book burnings is generally done by small minded tyrannical regimes so scared of ideological opponents that they feel the need to stop the spread of their ideas.

Why on earth associate oneself with those by doing such a stupid thing?

No... Unless a UN sanctioned Muslim peacekeeping force decided to burn all books except for the koran. These idiots, and thats what these extremist are, need to calm the heck down. Id tell you all what I really thought of the situation but the orgs rules prohibit it.

[Ice]

Let them burn.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

So, basically, American culture is so wasteful you burn books - rather than donating them to charity, or selling them to incoming students?

You have any idea how many books are plain disposed of every year?

Pape is right, book burning is universally recognised as an ideaological activity, except by Americans, and is NEVER taken well.

It's not recognized to be so, because it isn't. Take responsibility for your own illusions.

IIRC nabokov bought up all the translations of one of his books and had it burned because he didn't like how it was translated. People burn books for all kinds of reasons.

If you can't tell the difference between incidental burning and deliberately symbolic burning, AND you can't tell the difference between symbolic burning and a serious attempt to wipe out a book, you have no one but yourself to blame. If you go screaming fascism expect to have eyes rolled at you.

And surely this is about desecration or something along those lines and not fascism like you guys are pretending?

[PanzerJaeger]

So, basically, American culture is so wasteful you burn books - rather than donating them to charity, or selling them to incoming students?

Ye Gods!

No wonder you don't get it.

Those terrible Americans.

Let's try to keep things in the realm of reality.

[HoreTore]

Burning the quran was the spark, not the underlying cause.

Try getting that through your bloodlust, people.

[Husar]

If you can't tell the difference between incidental burning and deliberately symbolic burning, AND you can't tell the difference between symbolic burning and a serious attempt to wipe out a book, you have no one but yourself to blame. If you go screaming fascism expect to have eyes rolled at you.

You are seriously claiming it's your own achievement to be able to differentiate between that? Nothing to do with education? Like the kind of education Afghans were denied for a long, long time? These people were raised and indoctrinated to think this way for many years, as the more educated people the US gets the choice of:

a) annoy their archaic sensibilities and deal with the consequences (should be happy if it's just peaceful protests and not all of them joining the taliban)
b) try to be somewhat respectful until the people are on a similar level to the US, which isn't done in a day or a year
c) not get into the country after 9/11 in the first place in an effort to differentiate between a single, horrible terrorist act requiring police action and WAR ON TERRORISM AND BLOODY REVENGE

Sure, you value american lives and they value an arabic book, but the reactions to a destruction of such a value are very similar in both countries.

I would agree that books aren't worth making such a big fuss over but then I didn't grow up being taught to value these books over everything else.
For these people islam is their life and islam is represented by that book, you liberated them and claimed to want to bring them democracy, freedom and our values, obviously hasn't arrived or succeeded yet, that's not entirely their fault.

The West took many centuries to get from crusades to capitalism and some here still hold on to very old religious beliefs.
Expecting Afghans to turn around and become liberals after liberation turned out to be wrong a few years ago already.

The issue isn't even worth this long post that someone is inevitably going to interprete as america burning and subsequently protest against me.

[spankythehippo]

As it has been previously mentioned, to these people, their religion means everything. To them, they see the Qu'ran burning as uncalled for. Almost like a random guy walking into your house, taking a dump on your couch, laughing sardonically, then leaving. No damage has been done (except for the irrevocable poop stain), but it was not nice (maybe my analogy could do with some improvement).

If the US military base justifies their actions by pointing towards the overall anti-West sentiment portrayed by the people, they have got it all wrong. As Phillipus said, the condition of the Middle East is third world. They've got enough to deal with. So the Qu'ran burning was adding salt to the wound.

I respect the fact that the Middle East is still abiding by their ways, but this seems to be the core reason why people call them "archaic". What the West is trying to do is uncanny to the conversion of "savages" by missionaries in various countries in the good ol' days.

Why can't people mind their own business? Maybe what another guy believes in does not agree with you. But should it matter? No. Only when they're beliefs are starting to affect you, should you display some sort of opposition.

[Fragony]

If burn a quran in a muslim country you are just a disrespectful idiot, of course they are angry

[Hosakawa Tito]

Strange that when Afghan attacks Afghan, and Qurans are destroyed in the process, that doesn't seem to offend. Osama is dead, mission accomplished, get the hell out. Leave them to the tender mercies of the Taliban of which they seem to prefer.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Strange that when Afghan attacks Afghan, and Qurans are destroyed in the process, that doesn't seem to offend. Osama is dead, mission accomplished, get the hell out. Leave them to the tender mercies of the Taliban of which they seem to prefer.

Not strange at all really....

That's the point.

Stop looking at them like savages and try to think how these people are living day-to-day and what their lives are like.

[Fragony]

Leave them to the tender mercies of the Taliban of which they seem to prefer.

Do they have to be thankful for being invaded? The Germans did a lot of good here, but that isn't the first thing that comes to mind to my grandma.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

You are seriously claiming it's your own achievement to be able to differentiate between that?

I would agree that books aren't worth making such a big fuss over but then I didn't grow up being taught to value these books over everything else.
For these people islam is their life and islam is represented by that book, you liberated them and claimed to want to bring them democracy, freedom and our values, obviously hasn't arrived or succeeded yet, that's not entirely their fault.

Stop looking at them like savages and try to think how these people are living day-to-day and what their lives are like.

This is where judeo-christian style morality gets a terribly distorted view of things--you guys are being blinkered by culture.

We can and should pride ourselves on who we are. Limiting ourselves to what we've chosen of our own free will or are responsible for is peculiar and wrong and philosophical quicksand to boot.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Not strange at all really....

That's the point.

Stop looking at them like savages and try to think how these people are living day-to-day and what their lives are like.

Apparently my sarcasm isn't working too well. Their culture and tribal society is savage. There's no getting around that anytime soon.

Do they have to be thankful for being invaded? The Germans did a lot of good here, but that isn't the first thing that comes to mind to my grandma.

Nope. The Taliban miscalculated and refused to hand over Bin Laden, they reaped the whirlwind. They can go back to being abused by the Taliban if that's their comfort zone. Aid and abet any more terror attacks on the US, expect more of the same.