Koran Burning Craziness

[rvg]

Nope. The Taliban miscalculated and refused to hand over Bin Laden, they reaped the whirlwind. They can go back to being abused by the Taliban if that's their comfort zone. Aid and abet any more terror attacks on the US, expect more of the same.

/amen.

[Whacker]

Not strange at all really....

That's the point.

Stop looking at them like savages and try to think how these people are living day-to-day and what their lives are like.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

The underpinning values that distinguish civilization from savages are self-control, acceptance and tolerance, understanding, and proper valuation of action. These savages displayed none of these traits. They lack self-control when they started burning and rioting over disposal of a material item. They lack understanding when they refuse to accept that burning of these items or articles is NOT a symbolic thing. They don't place proper valuation on human LIFE when it ends in this ridiculous, despicable display of ignorance over such an act.

Here's a secular example. I was going to use something like the Vietnam War Memorial but there's only one of those so it doesn't fit. Say somewhere in Afghanistan, there's a large number of American flags. These have important, symbolic meaning to us Americans and we feel they should be treated with the proper respect and care. The Afghans dispose of these by tossing them in the trash and landfills, and some American notices. We would be outraged at this, it'd be all over the news and publicly decried and denounced hand over foot, but we aren't going to go burn down the Afghan embassy, stone Afghans on sight, or act like uncivilized savages.

Destroy something material with malicious intent or not, someone can get as mad as they please. The difference between US and THEM is that we exercise self control and place proper valuation on the action, and context of the action, and maintain self-control throughout. We can make more flags, we can discuss this like civilized people, and we can come to accords or understandings. We can't resurrect an individual who has been killed, or take back permanant debilitating injuries that result from such stupidity.

[Kralizec]

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

The underpinning values that distinguish civilization from savages are self-control, acceptance and tolerance, understanding, and proper valuation of action. These savages displayed none of these traits. They lack self-control when they started burning and rioting over disposal of a material item. They lack understanding when they refuse to accept that burning of these items or articles is NOT a symbolic thing. They don't place proper valuation on human LIFE when it ends in this ridiculous, despicable display of ignorance over such an act.

Here's a secular example. I was going to use something like the Vietnam War Memorial but there's only one of those so it doesn't fit. Say somewhere in Afghanistan, there's a large number of American flags. These have important, symbolic meaning to us Americans and we feel they should be treated with the proper respect and care. The Afghans dispose of these by tossing them in the trash and landfills, and some American notices. We would be outraged at this, it'd be all over the news and publicly decried and denounced hand over foot, but we aren't going to go burn down the Afghan embassy, stone Afghans on sight, or act like uncivilized savages.

Destroy something material with malicious intent or not, someone can get as mad as they please. The difference between US and THEM is that we exercise self control and place proper valuation on the action, and context of the action, and maintain self-control throughout. We can make more flags, we can discuss this like civilized people, and we can come to accords or understandings. We can't resurrect an individual who has been killed, or take back permanant debilitating injuries that result from such stupidity.

All true, but what happened here was entirely predictable. Hence disposing of those Qu'rans in a way that Aghans would notice was incredibly stupid.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

All true, but what happened here was entirely predictable. Hence disposing of those Qu'rans in a way that Aghans would notice was incredibly stupid.

Individual people being stupid is insignificant and not comment worthy. You may as well post one of those videos where they go around asking people geography questions on the street.

And if something is stupid only because of how a bunch of much stupider people will react to it, it's dead wrong to focus on the something...the only story is the afghan reaction.

[Ja'chyra]

Nope. The Taliban miscalculated and refused to hand over Bin Laden, they reaped the whirlwind. They can go back to being abused by the Taliban if that's their comfort zone. Aid and abet any more terror attacks on the US, expect more of the same.

Terror attacks on the world I'm sure you mean. But, basically, not even close. If that's the reason we're there we should be taking preventative action that wouldn't be tolerated in the modern world, like wiping out entire blood lines and religions, as someone else said, go Ghengis Khan on them. Either that or educate, and we've already shown we don't have the patience for that.

[Kralizec]

Individual people being stupid is insignificant and not comment worthy. You may as well post one of those videos where they go around asking people geography questions on the street.

And if something is stupid only because of how a bunch of much stupider people will react to it, it's dead wrong to focus on the something...the only story is the afghan reaction.

Two points:

1) "individual people" - I may be wrong on this, but I imagine that the people who handled the books had superiors who should have prevented this from happening - not because I think that disposing of Qu'rans is in itself disrespectful in any objective sense, but because of how it looks to the Afghans.

2) let's just say that I disagree with the second part of your post. The sensitivity of muslims in this regard is something that exists, period. The incident that sparked this was incredibly stupid for the same reason that it's incredibly stupid to taunt a violent criminal.

[HoreTore]

Stupidity?

How is this stupid? The afghan people are attacking a foreign invader. They are attacking the enemy. We are not there to help, we are there to enforce our way upon them.

Some people are talking about "valuing life" and other such nonsense. Well, the life of an enemy, the life of the one who killed your parents, isn't worth much to anyone, and it's the same for the afghans.

It seems like some people are forgetting there's a war in afghanistan...

For an anology Which actually works, unlike the vietnam nonsense above, try the following:

If the Germans trashed the Norwegian royal castle in 1944, how would the resistance have responded? Of course they would've stepped up their activities, at least the communist one(the other was more controlled by London, so it would depend on London...). Just like the Afghans are doing now.

[Papewaio]

Apparently my sarcasm isn't working too well. Their culture and tribal society is savage. There's no getting around that anytime soon.

Burning the most precious object of an oppressed people isn't part of the portfolio of winning hearts and minds.

If I went into some parts of LA and starting burning Rap music would I expect a different outcome?

If I went into the bible belt and started burning bibles? I'd expect upset locals who'd tell me to go *insert rude but non-god offending word here* myself.

Go into a country where they have very few books and they are by comparison far more precious. A country whose economy is 1% of that of the foreign military that is in charge. An economy where children are dying in the cold. Where even basic coloring books cause children to fight over their possession. Well burning books is a much bigger thing given the comparative value.

Could the book disposal been done in a more thoughtful manner? Heck yeah. I'm not saying don't dispose them. Ask the local Islamic leaders what is the proper method, if none then inter the books for 25-40 years. There are just much better methods than ones that have such a poor historical association than book burning.

For all of those on here who aren't quite getting it. The likes of Pindar... one of the smartest minds to have frequented the Org, quit over getting one of his posts deleted. People get very angry over post deletion, think about how you would feel if all your posts where deleted by a moderator being over zealous.

Nope. The Taliban miscalculated and refused to hand over Bin Laden, they reaped the whirlwind. They can go back to being abused by the Taliban if that's their comfort zone. Aid and abet any more terror attacks on the US, expect more of the same.

It's not an either or win-loss equation. There is a better path. Taliban were not in control of the entire country. Bin Laden wasn't even found in Afghanistan, he was in the Pakistan equivalent of Fort Bragg township.

[Husar]

Erm, no.

The question you need to ask is why are these people stupid? Why do they behave like savages?

Easy to go and say "they're stupid savages, I blame them for being stupid savages!"
Ask someone whether that person wants to be a stupid savage and the answer is probably no.
What makes someone not a stupid savage? Education.
How much education has been offered to Afghans in the last decades? Hardly any as far as I know.
All they got are quran schools and some tribal pride.

I'm not saying that I think we have to think of them as equals or some wishy washy commie hippie stuff, I'm saying if you want them to stop acting that way, educate them. Make sure they can send their children to proper school where they learn what we learned that enables us to restrain ourselves when someone burns our flags, teach them what we think are proper moral values etc.

They never learned that, how can you expect them to abide by it?

[Hax]

I think one should also make the effort to look at the modern history of Afghanistan, its ethnic diversity, the influence of the Taliban, the Soviet invasion and finally the Pashtunvali (the ethos of the Pashtos), especially the last one, as it talks about honour and justice. This is incredibly important in Pashto culture.

So, really, what do we even know about Afghanistan? I think a huge part of the problem stems from the fact that generally, we tend to have a very linear view of the Middle-East. I remember my professor of linguistics telling me about law in the Sinai: basically, if a member of any tribe committed a crime (ranging from theft to murder to adultery to what have you), they'd call in a judge from another tribe who'd started negotiating with the leader of the respective tribe. They'd negotiate until they'd reached an agreement on a sum of money, and that was it. No shari‘a, no cutting off hands or stoning or lashing, just some money.

The point of this anecdote is that we shouldn't forget that the Middle-East is an exceptionally diverse place.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Taliban were not in control of the entire country. Bin Laden wasn't even found in Afghanistan, he was in the Pakistan equivalent of Fort Bragg township.

Check your history books. At the time right before the invasion, when we asked the Taliban to hand over OBL, the man was in fact in Afghanistan, harbored by the Taliban. The moment when he fled to Pakistan was at Tora Bora where we failed to grab him in time. That was December of 2001, way after we asked for him from the Taliban.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Erm, no.

The question you need to ask is why are these people stupid? Why do they behave like savages?

Easy to go and say "they're stupid savages, I blame them for being stupid savages!"
Ask someone whether that person wants to be a stupid savage and the answer is probably no.
What makes someone not a stupid savage? Education.
How much education has been offered to Afghans in the last decades? Hardly any as far as I know.
All they got are quran schools and some tribal pride.

I'm not saying that I think we have to think of them as equals or some wishy washy commie hippie stuff, I'm saying if you want them to stop acting that way, educate them. Make sure they can send their children to proper school where they learn what we learned that enables us to restrain ourselves when someone burns our flags, teach them what we think are proper moral values etc.

They never learned that, how can you expect them to abide by it?

That's the question you need to ask if you are going to try and fix things...not if you are going to leave. It's perfectly interesting to be sure.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

The underpinning values that distinguish civilization from savages are self-control, acceptance and tolerance, understanding, and proper valuation of action. These savages displayed none of these traits. They lack self-control when they started burning and rioting over disposal of a material item. They lack understanding when they refuse to accept that burning of these items or articles is NOT a symbolic thing. They don't place proper valuation on human LIFE when it ends in this ridiculous, despicable display of ignorance over such an act.

Here's a secular example. I was going to use something like the Vietnam War Memorial but there's only one of those so it doesn't fit. Say somewhere in Afghanistan, there's a large number of American flags. These have important, symbolic meaning to us Americans and we feel they should be treated with the proper respect and care. The Afghans dispose of these by tossing them in the trash and landfills, and some American notices. We would be outraged at this, it'd be all over the news and publicly decried and denounced hand over foot, but we aren't going to go burn down the Afghan embassy, stone Afghans on sight, or act like uncivilized savages.

Destroy something material with malicious intent or not, someone can get as mad as they please. The difference between US and THEM is that we exercise self control and place proper valuation on the action, and context of the action, and maintain self-control throughout. We can make more flags, we can discuss this like civilized people, and we can come to accords or understandings. We can't resurrect an individual who has been killed, or take back permanant debilitating injuries that result from such stupidity.

No, compare it to burning copies of the US Constitution, in the US, when the US is the poor Third World Country occupied for over a decade.

Anyway, people murder abortionists in the US, so I don't see that the conceptual gulf is as wide as you are making out.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Burning the most precious object of an oppressed people isn't part of the portfolio of winning hearts and minds.

If I went into some parts of LA and starting burning Rap music would I expect a different outcome?

If I went into the bible belt and started burning bibles? I'd expect upset locals who'd tell me to go *insert rude but non-god offending word here* myself.

Go into a country where they have very few books and they are by comparison far more precious. A country whose economy is 1% of that of the foreign military that is in charge. An economy where children are dying in the cold. Where even basic coloring books cause children to fight over their possession. Well burning books is a much bigger thing given the comparative value.

Could the book disposal been done in a more thoughtful manner? Heck yeah. I'm not saying don't dispose them. Ask the local Islamic leaders what is the proper method, if none then inter the books for 25-40 years. There are just much better methods than ones that have such a poor historical association than book burning.

For all of those on here who aren't quite getting it. The likes of Pindar... one of the smartest minds to have frequented the Org, quit over getting one of his posts deleted. People get very angry over post deletion, think about how you would feel if all your posts where deleted by a moderator being over zealous.



It's not an either or win-loss equation. There is a better path. Taliban were not in control of the entire country. Bin Laden wasn't even found in Afghanistan, he was in the Pakistan equivalent of Fort Bragg township.

Last statement first. Bin Laden was in Afghanistan till after the battle of Tora Bora when he escaped into Pakistan.

You are justifying murdering soldiers over an unintentional act of burning an object or symbol. Do you honestly believe that if you intentionally burn a US flag or bible or Rap CD in L.A. the reaction for that would be to kill you? Really Pape?
Burning and burial of the ashes is the preferable method for dignified disposal of an American flag. An honest mistake taken as desecration? You be the judge.

However, in Afghanistan:
If you burn our scripture –we’re going to kill you
If you drawl cartoon characters of our prophet – we’re going to kill you
If you don’t convert to our religion – we’re going to kill you
If you don’t let us be tyrants over our people – we’re going to kill you

Am I missing anything?

That is what they are teaching their children, when they're not raping,murdering, starving them that is. There's no winning hearts and minds that are twisted by this kind of logic.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Last statement first. Bin Laden was in Afghanistan till after the battle of Tora Bora when he escaped into Pakistan.

You are justifying murdering soldiers over an unintentional act of burning an object or symbol. Do you honestly believe that if you intentionally burn a US flag or bible or Rap CD in L.A. the reaction for that would be to kill you? Really Pape?
Burning and burial of the ashes is the preferable method for dignified disposal of an American flag. An honest mistake taken as desecration? You be the judge.

However, in Afghanistan:
If you burn our scripture –we’re going to kill you
If you drawl cartoon characters of our prophet – we’re going to kill you
If you don’t convert to our religion – we’re going to kill you
If you don’t let us be tyrants over our people – we’re going to kill you

Am I missing anything?

That is what they are teaching their children, when they're not raping,murdering, starving them that is. There's no winning hearts and minds that are twisted by this kind of logic.

You're missing the ~90% who don't think like that but will get very upset anway.

Thus far, nobody has responded to my example. From this I conclude that our American friends cannot concieve of the US being an occupied Third World country, which speaks volumes in the current situation.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

If the US was a third world country we wouldn't be proud of our constitution ;)

[Ja'chyra]

You're missing the ~90% who don't think like that but will get very upset anway.

Thus far, nobody has responded to my example. From this I conclude that our American friends cannot concieve of the US being an occupied Third World country, which speaks volumes in the current situation.

People haven't answered it because it would be speculation only and differ with everyones opinion.

Maybe people do kill abortionists in the US, I don't know, but I do know they don't go on a country wide rampage.

[Fisherking]

Well, we can’t say it is like a missionary who gets bad things done to him after declining to sleep with the headman’s wife.

On the one hand we have people looking for a way to cause trouble and they were handed it on a silver platter.

On the other hand we have a case of gross incompetence at best and a deliberate act to provoke the locals at worst.

Now it has turned into an international incident.

It is more a time for damage control.

When you are dealing with religion common sense goes out the window and you just have to deal with what is.

[Fragony]

Stupidity?

How is this stupid? The afghan people are attacking a foreign invader. They are attacking the enemy. We are not there to help, we are there to enforce our way upon them.

Some people are talking about "valuing life" and other such nonsense. Well, the life of an enemy, the life of the one who killed your parents, isn't worth much to anyone, and it's the same for the afghans.

It seems like some people are forgetting there's a war in afghanistan...

For an anology Which actually works, unlike the vietnam nonsense above, try the following:

If the Germans trashed the Norwegian royal castle in 1944, how would the resistance have responded? Of course they would've stepped up their activities, at least the communist one(the other was more controlled by London, so it would depend on London...). Just like the Afghans are doing now.

Agreeing with the leftie here

[Whacker]

You're missing the ~90% who don't think like that but will get very upset anway.

Thus far, nobody has responded to my example. From this I conclude that our American friends cannot concieve of the US being an occupied Third World country, which speaks volumes in the current situation.

You're going off topic, but I'll bite.

They're occupied because they got themselves in that position to begin with. Read Hosa's posts. These people in general were actively supportive at worst, ambivalant at best, to their theocratic, radical government, the Taliban. This government aided, housed, abetted terrorists who attacked US citizens and targets that were all non-military in nature. Their government actively refused to extradite or assist in capture with the known and self-admitted perpetrators of these crimes, which is the equivalent to endorsing those activities. The backwater tribal savages actively assisted these same people, gave them intel and knowledge, hid them, fed them, etc. As Hosa stated, they reaped the whirlwind. I'm assuming you can now connect the dots and figure out why the US would never, ever be in this type of situation.

They've been "occupied" now for years. Anyone who believes that the US forces there haven't actively tried to make that area a better place for everyone are self deceived fools. Ignoring the military's propaganda and the media, I've a number of friends who've been deployed over there about what they do and how they try to take positive action. Want another account since you all will discount this? Read Goofball's posts. The average US soldier is not a bloodthirsty baby-murdering psychopath, they're doing their jobs and genuinely want to see an improvement in the quality of life over there. They aren't shooting civilians for sport, they're handing out shoes and food, teaching them how to make their living conditions better, modern medicine techniques and methods.

Guess what, it's not really working at all. Why? Because it's so damn corrupt, and most all of the backwater savages living in their tents are fine with that and have no desire for a status quo change. Some people here have claimed it's an education issue, and worse that it's an excuse for them acting like they do. I call total BS. These people aren't living in a vacuum, they've had contact with the rest of the world since the first ancient empires thousands of years ago. Communication and exposure aren't the issues at all, all of those means are there and available and have been since time immemorial.

As Hosa said. If the Taliban is what they want back, let them have it. If they try and pull more BS or provide support to active US enemies, then they'll reap the whirlwind again. Or here's another thought. We, being the US, went in to get the bad guys, and tried to make it a better place. Didn't really work at all. Think you can do a better job? Great, get your government to send in some people and material to assist, and see how far ya'll get. But get off your high horses and stop whining about how the US didn't do such and such or should have done such and such, because it's been done and tried. We've done what we came for, we tried to help, and it didn't work.

[Tellos Athenaios]

But get off your high horses and stop whining about how the US didn't do such and such or should have done such and such, because it's been done and tried. We've done what we came for, we tried to help, and it didn't work.

No, you're talking past each other. The whining that goes on here is from the exasperated US Americans who are fed up with Afghanistan.

Fine, but don't let that deceive you into thinking whatever the USA actually did do for good actually counts for anything. It's just now how the world works. You can do a lot of volunteer work in all sorts of charities, but if you then go to a man's home and start insulting his sainted mother you should not be surprised to get manhandled at some point. Acceptable response? Probably not. To be expected? Why, yes.

This is protest at a book burning, plain and simple, spun for political gain by the Taliban. Again, whether or not it is proportionate or even “right” in our opinions is utterly irrelevant. What matters is the perceived slight by the Afghans, and how this is spun by the Taliban.

Put it this way the job of the US military is not to moan and whine about how unfair life is. It's job is (among other things) to accurately assess and mitigate danger. Putting an unstable oil lamp next on the ridge of an open barrel of gunpowder or burn a Quran in a deeply religious, conservative country that so happens to value the Quran as a bed rock of society (and then flip it over or let word get out) is simply not that smart.

Cultural sensitivity training is not some wishy-washy nancy must-see-through course designed by politically correct ivory tower academics; it is simply a first aid to survive in a foreign country. Disregarding it is like disregarding the advice to bring plenty of fresh water when trekking through the Sahara desert.

[rory_20_uk]

I'm assuming you can now connect the dots and figure out why the US would never, ever be in this type of situation.

Really? The USA never targets civilians? Or is it OK as long as it is merely collateral damage, with the target a militant - probably.

Americans commit their atrocities wearing uniforms, an option that others do not have.

Afghanistan is an open sewer, but The USA isn't whiter than white.

[The Stranger]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

By The Wall Street Journal

February 23, 2012

KABUL -- Afghanistan is bracing for intensifying protests, as outrage over the burning of Korans at a US military base led to the first American casualties Thursday and President Barack Obama vowed to hold coalition officials accountable for the "inadvertent" sacrilege.

The three days of protests against Monday's burning of Islam's holiest book at the Bagram Air Field already have resulted in the deaths of at least 10 Afghans. Demonstrations are expected to escalate Friday, when clerics at mosques around the country are expected to dedicate their weekly sermons to denouncing the incident.

The deadly demonstrations that spread across Kabul and Afghanistan's provinces this week have targeted US and coalition military bases, Afghan government buildings and other symbols of Western presence.

Hours after the Taliban called on Afghans to kill Western forces in Afghanistan to avenge the insult Thursday, an Afghan soldier opened fire on US troops at a base in the eastern Nangarhar Province, according to Afghan officials.

Two American troops were killed before the Afghan soldier escaped into a crowd of protesters demonstrating outside the base in the province's Khogyani district.

This week's demonstrations erupted after coalition soldiers brought a truckload of Korans and other Islamic books from a Bagram detention facility to an incinerator at the base. Afghan workers at the base said they stopped the soldiers from destroying the books, but not before several copies of the Koran had been partially burned.

US military officials have launched an investigation to try to determine why the soldiers tried to burn Islamic materials. These books, according to some US officials, were slated for destruction because they contained "extremist literature" and prisoners' "clandestine communications."

Last April, after a Florida pastor oversaw the burning of a Koran, angry demonstrators in northern Afghanistan stormed a United Nations compound following Friday prayers, killing seven foreigners.

The memories of last year's attack resonated this week as Western embassies, aid groups and the US military imposed strict travel bans on their staffs and warned foreigners to steer clear of protests. The American Embassy in Kabul extended travel restrictions to northern Afghanistan on Thursday.

In another attempt to assuage the anger, Obama apologized to Karzai for what he called inadvertent attempts to burn the Islamic books, in a personal letter delivered Thursday by the US ambassador to Kabul, Ryan Crocker.

"I assure you that we will take appropriate steps to avoid any recurrence, to include holding accountable those responsible," Obama said in the letter, according to Karzai's office.

Karzai, who issued an appeal for calm Wednesday that appeared to have little immediate effect, met with hundreds of Afghan lawmakers to discuss the crisis Thursday. Some of these lawmakers had called for a "jihad," or holy war, against the US on Wednesday.

The Taliban has sought to capitalize on the widespread outrage by calling for Afghans across the country to attack Western bases, target military convoys and kill soldiers. Earlier this week, it also urged Afghan soldiers to turn their weapons on their Western counterparts.

At the same time, the latest Taliban statement affirmed the insurgent group's support for continuing negotiations with the US to open a Taliban political office in Qatar.

Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...pe_hpp_LEFTTop

This is just surreal. The above story reads like an Onion article. There wasn't this much outrage when it was discovered that a group of US soldiers made a hobby out of killing Afghan civilians, but somebody checks the wrong box at garbage pick-up and the nation descends into chaos.

I think this is a microcosm of the whole effort in Afghanistan. These people's priorities are just so completely stu... idio... cra... different than our own that they will never be dragged into the 21st century.

if you do not act american you are not in the 21st century... that one is new to me.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

The underpinning values that distinguish civilization from savages are self-control, acceptance and tolerance, understanding, and proper valuation of action. These savages displayed none of these traits. They lack self-control when they started burning and rioting over disposal of a material item. They lack understanding when they refuse to accept that burning of these items or articles is NOT a symbolic thing. They don't place proper valuation on human LIFE when it ends in this ridiculous, despicable display of ignorance over such an act.

Here's a secular example. I was going to use something like the Vietnam War Memorial but there's only one of those so it doesn't fit. Say somewhere in Afghanistan, there's a large number of American flags. These have important, symbolic meaning to us Americans and we feel they should be treated with the proper respect and care. The Afghans dispose of these by tossing them in the trash and landfills, and some American notices. We would be outraged at this, it'd be all over the news and publicly decried and denounced hand over foot, but we aren't going to go burn down the Afghan embassy, stone Afghans on sight, or act like uncivilized savages.

Destroy something material with malicious intent or not, someone can get as mad as they please. The difference between US and THEM is that we exercise self control and place proper valuation on the action, and context of the action, and maintain self-control throughout. We can make more flags, we can discuss this like civilized people, and we can come to accords or understandings. We can't resurrect an individual who has been killed, or take back permanant debilitating injuries that result from such stupidity.

and here i was, thinking that France was a civilised country.

You are not just burning a material thing, you are destroying the fundament of their ideals. ok lets go with that.

When the students of '66 thought that the government was "destroying" ideals, what did they do? They rose and took to the streets, and I dont think it was all very peacefull. Perhaps the level of violence differed, but that is a gradual difference, and i think you make the difference between civilised and uncivilised principial. so unless France only civilised after '66 or if those people were not civilised people, how does this fit?

or, what about this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Hat_Riot

London riots... Or that it turns out that most hardcore football hooligans were infact "civilised" familymen, or they became such later.

its all much more complicated than you make it out to be.

The underpinning values that distinguish civilization from savages are self-control, acceptance and tolerance, understanding, and proper valuation of action.

many of these traits are lacking in let's say the german army (as a whole, or the ss if you would like). still it would be hard to maintain that germany of that time was uncivilised.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

This is protest at a book burning, plain and simple, spun for political gain by the Taliban. Again, whether or not it is proportionate or even “right” in our opinions is utterly irrelevant. What matters is the perceived slight by the Afghans, and how this is spun by the Taliban.

Your contempt for the afghani people is obscene. You honestly didn't think they are even remotely capable of better? It speaks volumes that you mock people for being "surprised" that they are this backwards, for being capable of thinking them better. But for you, it is no more likely that the would be able to stop themselves from killing dozens than it is that the sun in the Sahara would stop being hot. You can't be bothered to consider them as people capable of acting differently, instead you try to work in as many ways of calling the US soldiers are stupid as you can--despite the fact that no one has been saying they were smart.

Oh yes, you don't despise them, you "understand" them "realistically", I know.

if you do not act american you are not in the 21st century... that one is new to me.

Panzer is including more than just Americans when he talks about "our own" priorities, after all there are many countries that are in afghanistan, and western countries share many of the same priorities. If you used the phrase "our own priorities" would you be exclusively referring to some dutch priorities, and implying that the rest of the world was backwards in some nationalistic way? Why would you use the phrase in that way? What's so special about the dutch?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Your contempt for the afghani people is obscene. You honestly didn't think they are even remotely capable of better? It speaks volumes that you mock people for being "surprised" that they are this backwards, for being capable of thinking them better. But for you, it is no more likely that the would be able to stop themselves from killing dozens than it is that the sun in the Sahara would stop being hot.

Well if you enjoy straw so much, don't let me stop you.

You can't be bothered to consider them as people capable of acting differently, instead you try to work in as many ways of calling the US soldiers are stupid as you can--despite the fact that no one has been saying they were smart.

Oh yes, you don't despise them, you "understand" them "realistically", I know.

Some more clutching at, I see. Look, I'm not the posters here who call them savages. I'm not even remotely interested in defending what they did to innocent US service people, and I'm certainly not interested in a morality debate over it.

I do however agree fully with PVC that the Quran holds special value in Afghani society, and that to burn them is going to result in backlash as a matter of course. I full well expect them to be capable of much better, but I don't expect them to hand in a politely worded note of dissent at the US embassy either. From what MRD and other posters have written in Afghanistan, that would be foolishly naive. Therefore, I think the Americans who cry out and going all “look at those savages, I don't know why we're bothering” are utterly misguided.

[Whacker]

No, you're talking past each other. The whining that goes on here is from the exasperated US Americans who are fed up with Afghanistan.

It seems to me most of the whining is the european armchair generals who know far better how things should be going and how to handle things, AND who think that there is an excuse for this idiotic rioting that's going on (education, self-righteous rage, etc etc). Hint: there is none.

Fine, but don't let that deceive you into thinking whatever the USA actually did do for good actually counts for anything. It's just now how the world works. You can do a lot of volunteer work in all sorts of charities, but if you then go to a man's home and start insulting his sainted mother you should not be surprised to get manhandled at some point. Acceptable response? Probably not. To be expected? Why, yes.

Some people keep harping on the fact that the US military is in "someone else's home". We've made it clear why we are there. Now it's time to leave, since the job we came to do is done.

This is protest at a book burning, plain and simple, spun for political gain by the Taliban. Again, whether or not it is proportionate or even “right” in our opinions is utterly irrelevant. What matters is the perceived slight by the Afghans, and how this is spun by the Taliban.

No, what matters is the insane reaction to this action. All attempts to mitigate this or explain why they are doing it are ridiculuously pointless and do nothing but attempt to absolve the rioters from their responsibility.

Put it this way the job of the US military is not to moan and whine about how unfair life is. It's job is (among other things) to accurately assess and mitigate danger. Putting an unstable oil lamp next on the ridge of an open barrel of gunpowder or burn a Quran in a deeply religious, conservative country that so happens to value the Quran as a bed rock of society (and then flip it over or let word get out) is simply not that smart.

How profoundly arrogant, maybe you can get a job in the White House as secretary of defense, or something on the joint chief's staff. I'm sure they'd welcome your insight on what the US military's job really is.

Cultural sensitivity training is not some wishy-washy nancy must-see-through course designed by politically correct ivory tower academics; it is simply a first aid to survive in a foreign country. Disregarding it is like disregarding the advice to bring plenty of fresh water when trekking through the Sahara desert.

All more attempts to excuse their behavior. The reaction is not commensurate with the action.

[Whacker]

and here i was, thinking that France was a civilised country.

You are not just burning a material thing, you are destroying the fundament of their ideals. ok lets go with that.

No, what was "incorrectly disposed of" was a object that contains writing which they then interpret however they feel appropriate. Again, people seem to be missing the point. Objects should never, ever have more value than human life. If someone destroyed the Vietnam War Memorial in the capital, I'd be beyond pissed, and whomever did it should serve life. But I'm not going to take to the streets with all my neighbors, burning and looting as I damn well please about it.

When the students of '66 thought that the government was "destroying" ideals, what did they do? They rose and took to the streets, and I dont think it was all very peacefull. Perhaps the level of violence differed, but that is a gradual difference, and i think you make the difference between civilised and uncivilised principial. so unless France only civilised after '66 or if those people were not civilised people, how does this fit?

or, what about this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Hat_Riot

You're confusing demonstrating vs rioting. Demonstrations do turn into riots occasionally, given the wrong stimuli and circumstances.

hardcore football hooligans were infact "civilised" familymen

Self-contradicting statement.

[The Stranger]

Your contempt for the afghani people is obscene. You honestly didn't think they are even remotely capable of better? It speaks volumes that you mock people for being "surprised" that they are this backwards, for being capable of thinking them better. But for you, it is no more likely that the would be able to stop themselves from killing dozens than it is that the sun in the Sahara would stop being hot. You can't be bothered to consider them as people capable of acting differently, instead you try to work in as many ways of calling the US soldiers are stupid as you can--despite the fact that no one has been saying they were smart.

Oh yes, you don't despise them, you "understand" them "realistically", I know.




Panzer is including more than just Americans when he talks about "our own" priorities, after all there are many countries that are in afghanistan, and western countries share many of the same priorities. If you used the phrase "our own priorities" would you be exclusively referring to some dutch priorities, and implying that the rest of the world was backwards in some nationalistic way? Why would you use the phrase in that way? What's so special about the dutch?

exchange american for western then. and you tell me what is so special about the dutch, i honestly do not know.

[The Stranger]

No, what was "incorrectly disposed of" was a object that contains writing which they then interpret however they feel appropriate. Again, people seem to be missing the point. Objects should never, ever have more value than human life. If someone destroyed the Vietnam War Memorial in the capital, I'd be beyond pissed, and whomever did it should serve life. But I'm not going to take to the streets with all my neighbors, burning and looting as I damn well please about it.

i agree with you here, only it is too simple to talk of just objects. true i wish it was that simple and to you and me it perhaps is, but like i said it is what constitutes the fundament of their ideals. you can say that its not the case or that it ought not be the case, but it is. and for the majority of the people in this world, if you will touch their ideals in a way to destroy them they will rise up and fight, this includes the "civilised" countries. you can then call it demonstration or riot... but one is just an marginally more organised version of the other.

You're confusing demonstrating vs rioting. Demonstrations do turn into riots occasionally, given the wrong stimuli and circumstances.

ask them what it was and they will say it was a demonstration. ask you what it was and it was a riot...

Self-contradicting statement.

many socalled civilised people turn into savages if you place them into a group with a cause or opportunity to misbehave.

[Papewaio]

Last statement first. Bin Laden was in Afghanistan till after the battle of Tora Bora when he escaped into Pakistan.

So like 911 where is the real intel and support comming from? Is it the place we invaded or it's neighbor who gains from the invasion?

You are justifying murdering soldiers over an unintentional act of burning an object or symbol. Do you honestly believe that if you intentionally burn a US flag or bible or Rap CD in L.A. the reaction for that would be to kill you? Really Pape?

By now my feelings on religion and my little pony should be quite clear. I do not agree with the murderous rage I just know when jumping in a paddock and pulling the tail of a bull or peeing on an electric fence there will be foreseeable consequences so why do it?

I'm pretty sure given the reputation that I would get shot dead in the wrong neighborhood in LA without having to provoke anyone. The LA riots resulted in 53 dead over a trial outcome. No one died from the beating no holy relics were destroyed.

So using the same stick doesn't that tar All Anericans as savages? I don't think so. That would be a racist accusation and inaccurate too.

Burning and burial of the ashes is the preferable method for dignified disposal of an American flag. An honest mistake taken as desecration? You be the judge.

in general it isn't even a jail able offense in Aus. It's just a symbol after all. No one got shoot dead for protesting against Vietnam here either.

However, in Afghanistan:
If you burn our scripture –we’re going to kill you
If you drawl cartoon characters of our prophet – we’re going to kill you
If you don’t convert to our religion – we’re going to kill you
If you don’t let us be tyrants over our people – we’re going to kill you

Am I missing anything?

The catholic church only semi apologized for how Galileo was handled in 1992. 400 years ago a secular conversation over steak could lead you on to the stake. More modern atrocities abound in the name if most systems be it religious or not. Power draws in all sorts. Its quite often not the system it's the end users in charge.

So we bombed them into the stone age yet want them to develop past were western religions stood in the renaissance in a decade. A Chinese saying states that it takes a hundred years to educate a person. After all there parents and grand parents need to be lifted up too.

That is what they are teaching their children, when they're not raping,murdering, starving them that is. There's no winning hearts and minds that are twisted by this kind of logic.

I don't agree with the outcome but it isn't unique to Afghanistan or Islam. Some countries have come further along the track then others but a quick review of most and you will find some pretty horrific practices. Look at Australia and both the Stolen Generation and the Lost Children. Aboriginals were on the wildlife census until 1967. White Australia policy still has supporters and components of that rear it's ugly tendrils over every illegal boat that comes ashore.

Do I think therefore every Aussie is racist? Bit of a logical jump.