With Great Sacrifice [Concluded]

[edse]

Ah, YOU voted for Atheotes day 2.

So you're voting him like a hypocrite...?

The vote on atheotes was only to see if someone would vote as third and mention "third on the bandwagon". Monty did, that's why I find him scummy.

Btw, weren't you the first one?

[Visor]

The vote on atheotes was only to see if someone would vote as third and mention "third on the bandwagon". Monty did, that's why I find him scummy.

Btw, weren't you the first one?

I think a lot of people would've done that...

And yes I was, but you don't see me voting White Eyes, do you?

[edse]

I think a lot of people would've done that...

And yes I was, but you don't see me voting White Eyes, do you?

But most likely a mafia as it would be extra good for him to act that way.

Sorry for jumping around but Unvote: Vote: LacyMcCrow You post once a day and your posts contain a lot of weak argumentation making it look like you try to avoid attention.

[LazyMcCrow]

But most likely a mafia as it would be extra good for him to act that way.

Sorry for jumping around but Unvote: Vote: LacyMcCrow You post once a day and your posts contain a lot of weak argumentation making it look like you try to avoid attention.

Argument + Documentation = Argumentation! : Like it, nice one centurion.
Whether mine is 'weak' or not is certainly open to debate, but I don't think any of my posts look like an attempt to avoid attention, and I have only post less than yourself at the time of writing. Your accusatory post and (hypocritical?) line of argument is doing nothing but making you smell fishy to me. The apologetic line alone: 'Sorry for jumping around' stands out a mile - you're only sorry because it draws attention to yourself.

UNVOTE: Lewwyn - you give a fairly decent account of yourself to my mind.

Not sure who gets my vote now, but edse put himself up there with GH Will reread the thread and hopefully formulate an opinion!

[Yaropolk]

Vote Montmorency a little bird told me he is special.

[BSmith]

Why do you keep voting? Unfortunately we didn’t get an official tally of the votes from yesterday, so we have no way to know if your vote then was actually counted or not. Perhaps you would like to shed some light on the matter?

[BSmith]

EDIT: I stand by my vote the other day - especially when compared to other games I've been in with him, GH seems to be trying to appear helpful without actually contributing anything. However, this doesn't really mesh with my 'Chaotix is scum' theory, unless one or the other was a SK/third party.

GH’s vote for Chaotix could easily have been an attempt to get on the right side of the lynch. When he changed from Jarema (a “place holder” vote) Chaotix was already well in the lead. I wouldn’t discount a relationship between the two. Perhaps an explanation by GH for the reasons he switched votes would be helpful.

And what’s up with “place holder” votes anyway? That is basically just saying that you don’t have any time so you are going to vote for anyone, just so you can stay “active” and not get too much attention for not posting. It’s lazy and it is way too convenient, especially as there are others who have missed rounds entirely (me included) that will draw more attention.

GH has done fairly little to advance the town cause in this game. Most of his posts are “place holder” type votes, or meta discussions about mafia in general.

While edse is also raising my suspicions, I think that I am going to go with vote: GeneralHankerchief for now.

[LazyMcCrow]

vote: BSmith Why is edse raising your suspicions?

[DaveShack]

Maybe the folks who don't like lots of power roles have a point. If you have lots of time (spent about 40 minutes just reading and another 10 typing this) it is possible to figure some things out even this early in the game. Maybe I'm not as useless at vanilla as I thought. Or perhaps this will turn out to be a load of senseless drivel. Anyhow, in the spirit of getting more discussion.

We need to sacrifice the one who is pure. Purity can come in either good or evil form, so we should not use good/evil as a sole indicator of scum.
My reading on Chaotix is that he could have been either SK or scum. This would make more sense within the night writeup than town would.

We can't read the high priest as innocent, at least not for certain. That role might just give flavor to the writeups -- now that the high priest is dead we get less precision with a knife. But the next night will tell us a lot -- if Ishmael wasn't town then either mafia killed sk, or sk killed mafia. Here's where my relatively less experience comes in -- is one of those kill types normally not allowed? I can't remember which one normally can't kill the other. If we have 2 or more kills tonight, then the obvious assumption that Ishmael was innocent is probably correct. And in fact I'm not really saying he wasn't, just keeping the possibility open given the genre.

GH and Lewwyn make a big point about lurkers being more likely to be scum, but hunting lurkers is also a good cover for mafia trying to take control of the lynch. They throw a vote out on a lurker, and if a bandwagon results they are less likely to be suspected because late on the bandwagon is seen as more scummy than starting one in the first place. And if the mafia find themselves with more posts than the average town, it is safe to point out anyone as a lurker because their scumbuddy won't be on that list.

Then we have the dead guys talking and voting. That could mean they're scum, though I'm hard pressed to say who killed them. Would a host deliberately "kill" the mafia and make it their challenge to influence people with their dead votes? Seems too unbalanced to me. So would having townies still be able to vote after being killed, unless they were power roles to begin with.

My best guess is that one (or more) of the lurker hunters is scum. For that I'll go back to the voting patterns. The vote on Chaotix only got serious when we got most of the way through day and GH and Lewwyn both had votes. Don't know how to read Yaropolk -- dead and counted, or dead and not counted? Visorslash doesn't give me a negative vibe yet, but did follow a deader. I'm town but I can't expect you to believe me. So who voted late on that bandwagon, and are now hunting lurkers? It's a coin flip between GH and Lewwyn, and I see GH as being more helpful.

Vote: Lewwyn but I'm open to better evidence.

[DaveShack]

That took long enough to write that several posts came in.

This reminded me, I have been suspicious of Edse doing so much vote switching. I can imagine scum bouncing around like that, hoping something will stick.

I'm really torn between Lewwyn and GH, and BSmith makes the same points I would have made about GH if the coin flip went that way. Let's examine this behavior some more.

[BSmith]

vote: BSmith Why is edse raising your suspicions?

I don’t know that I buy the “always slipping away from the lynch” that others accuse edse of, mainly because it is some of the same others that are allowing him to do that.

But I am wary of him for several reasons, some of them the same ones that you already pointed out: his self-conscious vote switching today (when he has been pretty solid in voting for just Monty the past two days); his semi-serious involvement in the D2 dead voting extravaganza (really just a big WIFOM in my mind), his voting for White_Eyes today for basically the same thing he did earlier in the game.

To be honest now that I look a little deeper, this just seems like erratic behavior, and not anything more sinister, but he does bear watching just in case I am doing a terrible job of reading him.

[Yaropolk]

Why do you keep voting? Unfortunately we didn’t get an official tally of the votes from yesterday, so we have no way to know if your vote then was actually counted or not. Perhaps you would like to shed some light on the matter?

Why do you keep voting? You have your role I have mine. I was right about Chaotix, and I'm right about Monty.

[Lewwyn]

My best guess is that one (or more) of the lurker hunters is scum. For that I'll go back to the voting patterns. The vote on Chaotix only got serious when we got most of the way through day and GH and Lewwyn both had votes. Don't know how to read Yaropolk -- dead and counted, or dead and not counted? Visorslash doesn't give me a negative vibe yet, but did follow a deader. I'm town but I can't expect you to believe me. So who voted late on that bandwagon, and are now hunting lurkers? It's a coin flip between GH and Lewwyn, and I see GH as being more helpful.

Vote: Lewwyn but I'm open to better evidence.

I snipped the first part because it was long, but I did read it. I actually though t it was a good post with some good ideas, like the point about Ishmael. But in the end I don't think you're right and you are misremembering or twisting facts.

You say the vote on Chaotix only got serious when GH and I had votes on us. Actually when I voted for Chaotix I don't think anyone was voting for me. I joined late to the Chaotix bandwagon? There were barely any voters on him, the votes were 3 for GH and 3 for Chaotix. I pushed the vote to 4 on Chaotix. So it wasn't a bandwagon until after I made the vote. You can't just say I threw a useless vote onto Chaotix.

As for hunting lurkers I'm voting for edse who is not a lurker. I have said I want to see the lurkers post but I haven't voted for them.

Get your facts strait because it looks like you're twisting them to put a case on me that doesn't exist. Its obvious you haven't been following closely and are trying to make up for it. I can't stand it.

[BSmith]

Why do you keep voting? You have your role I have mine. I was right about Chaotix, and I'm right about Monty.

Right. I am in the alive category, and for all we know you are dead. Apparently you are not dead if your role still allows you to vote, even though you are in the same category as the others that have clearly been killed.

As for Monty – what can you tell us about him other than “I am right”? It is a little difficult to blindly follow a ghost that “died” under suspicious circumstances.

I will note, however, that while Monty has been talkative he did not vote yesterday (unless I missed it?) and he has not yet voted today.

[edse]

This reminded me, I have been suspicious of Edse doing so much vote switching. I can imagine scum bouncing around like that, hoping something will stick.

I voted for Montmorency two days and today I switched once, is that much vote switching?

[Csargo]

Right. I am in the alive category, and for all we know you are dead. Apparently you are not dead if your role still allows you to vote, even though you are in the same category as the others that have clearly been killed.

As for Monty – what can you tell us about him other than “I am right”? It is a little difficult to blindly follow a ghost that “died” under suspicious circumstances.

I will note, however, that while Monty has been talkative he did not vote yesterday (unless I missed it?) and he has not yet voted today.

He is right.

[LazyMcCrow]

I voted for Montmorency two days and today I switched once, is that much vote switching?

Not as much as me. I think the ghost is onto something.
UNVOTE: BSmith VOTE: Montmorency

[BSmith]

What the hell. Let’s see where this goes. unvote; vote: Montmorency

[GeneralHankerchief]

And what’s up with “place holder” votes anyway? That is basically just saying that you don’t have any time so you are going to vote for anyone, just so you can stay “active” and not get too much attention for not posting. It’s lazy and it is way too convenient, especially as there are others who have missed rounds entirely (me included) that will draw more attention.

I was pretty drunk in that post where I voted for Chaotix. I saw that I had votes, I saw that my best chance of survival was switching it off to Chaotix. I wasn't really in a state to determine if my vote switch was necessary or not.

[DaveShack]

Get your facts strait because it looks like you're twisting them to put a case on me that doesn't exist. Its obvious you haven't been following closely and are trying to make up for it. I can't stand it.

Nah, I'm just trying to make sense of what little there is. I'm satisfied with your reaction, for now. Unvote

I'll have to read the new material more closely to see where I should turn my attention to next.

[DaveShack]

Let's see, follow a ghost's (?) vote for Monty? Believe or don't believe the explanation from GH that his Chaotix vote was under the influence?
Need... More... Info...

[DaveShack]

He is right.

Which he? Which statement is right?

I guess you're limited by dead rules, but confusing info may be worse than no info.

Edit: and no, I'm not just bumping my post count in the thread. (decided not to post that as a separate post)

[GeneralHankerchief]

Grrrrrr......vote: Chaotix. You know why

This was the first vote on Chaotix last round. The interesting thing is that this was in direct opposition to Chaotix voting for Monty, who is now Yaro's lynch choice.

[DaveShack]

What conclusion do you draw from that? Take us through the logic please.

[Csargo]

Which he? Which statement is right?

I guess you're limited by dead rules, but confusing info may be worse than no info.

Edit: and no, I'm not just bumping my post count in the thread. (decided not to post that as a separate post)

I was referring to Yaro's statement about Montmorency.

[Csargo]

Which he? Which statement is right?

I guess you're limited by dead rules, but confusing info may be worse than no info.

Edit: and no, I'm not just bumping my post count in the thread. (decided not to post that as a separate post)

Hi! I'm an extra post.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'm wasn't drawing any conclusion, just pointing it out. However, if you do want me to take it further, I'd be more than willing to.

- First of all, despite Yaro's statements of such when he told us to vote Monty, I was unsure if this was the first time he had pulled this in this game. Now I know that it isn't.

- Secondly, the current opinion is that Chaotix is scum of sort sort going by the drop in kills. Whether or not this is actually the case (I think it's likely, but am nowhere near certain), Yaro is really pushing this line hard in order to get us to lynch Monty this round. This is also serving to remind us of his perceived importance in the game.

- Considering the fact that Chaotix was specifically going after Monty last round and that Yaro specifically referenced this when voting Chaotix, it's likely that Yaro got his information regarding Monty this past night. Whether this was triggered by Chaotix (possibly a role) posthumously suggesting this to his buddies, who then told Yaropolk, is beyond my pay grade.

If we're inclined to believe Yaro, then the best thing we should do is probably trust his source(s) and vote Monty. If we don't, or believe that he has an ulterior motive, we can't really strike directly at Yaropolk, him being already dead and all. Monty is in this case either a sacrificial lamb designed to be part of a confidence scam on Yaro's part (the kills decrease again and we hail Yaro as our savior for the rest of the game and follow his directives unquestioningly) or a role of some importance that is in opposition to Yaro's goals. There is also the possibility that Yaro's being manipulated by the source feeding him this information, but I find this unlikely as there is a high chance that Yaro has a role himself.

In any case, Monty's been on since the discussion ramped up earlier today and hasn't posted.

Unvote: DaveShack
Vote: Montmorency

At least until he gets on.

[Ishmael]

Come on GH, you can do better than that. First you give your reasoning for voting Chaotix as "I was drunk," and then you switch to Montmorency simply because a dead person told you to. Sure he's implying that he has a source of information (detective, PMs when he was alive, whatever), but anybody can do that - scum, a third-party role, or even just a townie who wants to make his case heard. If I told everybody to vote for you because "a little bird told me to," would you then meekly acquiesce and self vote?

[GeneralHankerchief]

The difference between the two cases is that in this case, I outlined most to all of the possible motives for Yaropolk to be doing this and determined that it was more probable he was telling the truth (or at least what he perceived to be the truth). In your example, I'd know without a doubt that you were lying and thus focus on proving it to everybody. Differences in available information account for a lot.

[Montmorency]

Oh, is that what you do? Well, stick around, fellas.