Hi America, meet islamisation

[Hax]

So all other things pertaining to security should be handled with laws, but when it comes to muslims, we should just ask 'pretty please' and hope they are in a good mood?

That's the thing, isn't it? It's already handled by security laws, we don't need another one applying only to the burka, as it's already covered by other laws. I just don't get the idea of women not being able to choose, as we've already established that this is a matter of personal autonomy, what they want to wear in public.

Do you want to live in a country where the state tells you what you can't or what you can wear? Doesn't sound very American to me.

[Vuk]

That's the thing, isn't it? It's already handled by security laws, we don't need another one applying only to the burka, as it's already covered by other laws. I just don't get the idea of women not being able to choose, as we've already established that this is a matter of personal autonomy, what they want to wear in public.

Do you want to live in a country where the state tells you what you can't or what you can wear? Doesn't sound very American to me.

The American ideal is maximum freedom to the extent that it doesn't infringe on someone else's freedom. When you go through airport security and choose to wear a face mask (no matter what you call it), you are creating a security problem that threatens many others. I live in WI wear it can get pretty cold. It is not unusual to see guys outside of a FleetFarm with ski-masks, chatting. When they get a driver's license photo, go into a building, or go to an airport they are not wearing them though. You have to be reasonable.

How far are you willing to take the 'right to wear whatever you want'? If I walk around in full body armour and a face mask, with a pistol on my side, am I not threatening other's security? It is legal to wear a pistol, so why not in combination with concealing my identity and wearing body armour? There have to be limits.

[Rhyfelwyr]

When it comes to the burqa I think women should be free to wear whatever they want so long as it complies with public decency laws. But at the same time, we should not do anything further to accomodate them in the name of 'freedom of religion'.

So if Mrs. al-Wahabi wants to wear her burqa while she goes to get her groceries, I see no problem with that and I think it is bizarre when people do have a problem with that. But if she wants to board a plane but doesn't want to show her face for airport security, then that's tough luck for her, no plane ride.

Don't get me wrong. I think the burqa looks ridiculous. It comes from an alien culture that I don't like seeing on my streets. But the proper legislation for dealing with this would relate to immigration, not what people can wear.

Anyway, the concern that some women might be forced to wear the burqa is a valid one. However I see no reason why that issue would not be covered by existing laws.

And as for the discussion on Arab culture here, it is irrelevant. I don't see why Fragony or myself should feel obliged to know anything about national or ethnic cultures besides our own. It is perfectly fine for our viewpoint on the burqa to be shaped by our own legal/security/womens' rights concerns.

[Vuk]

When it comes to the burqa I think women should be free to wear whatever they want so long as it complies with public decency laws. But at the same time, we should not do anything further to accomodate them in the name of 'freedom of religion'.

So if Mrs. al-Wahabi wants to wear her burqa while she goes to get her groceries, I see no problem with that and I think it is bizarre when people do have a problem with that. But if she wants to board a plane but doesn't want to show her face for airport security, then that's tough luck for her, no plane ride.

Don't get me wrong. I think the burqa looks ridiculous. It comes from an alien culture that I don't like seeing on my streets. But the proper legislation for dealing with this would relate to immigration, not what people can wear.

Anyway, the concern that some women might be forced to wear the burqa is a valid one. However I see no reason why that issue would not be covered by existing laws.

And as for the discussion on Arab culture here, it is irrelevant. I don't see why Fragony or myself should feel obliged to know anything about national or ethnic cultures besides our own. It is perfectly fine for our viewpoint on the burqa to be shaped by our own legal/security/womens' rights concerns.

Actually, my brother was asked at a hardware store to remove his hood once, because it covered too much of his face. When you go into someone's home or business, you have to obey their laws, and people feel uncomfortable when you conceal your identity like that.
If you want to walk down the street in a burqa, more power to you, but if you are coming into a bank or store, my guess is that if it was not for people being afraid of religious discrimination suits, they would ask them to remove it. In what other circumstances would it be ok for a masked man to walk into a bank and not be asked to remove the mask? (and for all you know, whatever is beneath the burqua is a man. Even if it is not, you don't know if it is a woman with criminal intent)
If I was running a business, I certainly would not want people coming in wearing masks.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Anyway, the concern that some women might be forced to wear the burqa is a valid one. However I see no reason why that issue would not be covered by existing laws.

Because we can't just sit back and say "well, it's covered by our laws". For example, we don't just make drugs illegal, we actively try to intercept the drug boats bringing the stuff into the country, not a great analogy but whatever. Same with the burqa--there's no feasible way to just stop domestic abuse by making it illegal, so we try other things with the goal of actually decreasing domestic abuse.

Though I agree with Hax that there's no reason to prevent born again/islamic converts from wearing it. In the future the ban will likely (hopefully) become irrelevant.

[Hax]

The American ideal is maximum freedom to the extent that it doesn't infringe on someone else's freedom. When you go through airport security and choose to wear a face mask (no matter what you call it), you are creating a security problem that threatens many others. I live in WI wear it can get pretty cold. It is not unusual to see guys outside of a FleetFarm with ski-masks, chatting. When they get a driver's license photo, go into a building, or go to an airport they are not wearing them though. You have to be reasonable.

I don't think you are aware of the exact extent of the burqa ban. When it comes to matters of entering buildings like banks, airports, grocery shops to sports halls, the legislation already exists. Of course they're going to have to be able to identify themselves.

The bill is going to talk about what women can wear in public. That's right, it's banning burqas from being worn when a woman goes out of the house, which basically infringes on a woman's autonomy.

But let's be serious here. This is a quote from the article I linked to earlier on:

An article on the interesting Swedish site islamologi.se picks the story up:In France, where there is an inflamed debate on the matter right now, the first investigation carried out by the police last year found that there were 367 women in France who wore burka or Niqab – 0.015% of the population. This was so low that the secret service was told to count again, and came up with a figure of 2,000; in Holland there seem to be about 400, and in Sweden a respectable guess suggests 100

367, 400, 100. Amazing figures. We're going to come up with seperate legislation to talk about these people, most of whom weren't even born in a Muslim country but rather chose to don the burka themselves. Is this a serious political issue that warrants discussion in parliament?

And as for the discussion on Arab culture here, it is irrelevant. I don't see why Fragony or myself should feel obliged to know anything about national or ethnic cultures besides our own. It is perfectly fine for our viewpoint on the burqa to be shaped by our own legal/security/womens' rights concerns

The implication was made that the burqa is a direct result of the importation of Arab culture in the West. I asked Fragony​ to back this up, but he refused. Now, seeing as I'm quarter Arab (not half, mind you), is it unthinkable that this strikes me as being somewhat offensive, and as such, I really wanted to know why he thinks this is somehow an integral part of Arab culture, when in fact it was basically declared an idiotic tradition over a century ago.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Actually, my brother was asked at a hardware store to remove his hood once, because it covered too much of his face. When you go into someone's home or business, you have to obey their laws, and people feel uncomfortable when you conceal your identity like that.
If you want to walk down the street in a burqa, more power to you, but if you are coming into a bank or store, my guess is that if it was not for people being afraid of religious discrimination suits, they would ask them to remove it. In what other circumstances would it be ok for a masked man to walk into a bank and not be asked to remove the mask? (and for all you know, whatever is beneath the burqua is a man. Even if it is not, you don't know if it is a woman with criminal intent)
If I was running a business, I certainly would not want people coming in wearing masks.

Employers should be free to impose their own restrictions on what people wear when in their property. That's something that is well within their rights.

But for the government to ban women from wearing it in any public space is quite oppressive IMO.

Same with the burqa--there's no feasible way to just stop domestic abuse by making it illegal, so we try other things with the goal of actually decreasing domestic abuse.

If you think the link between the burqa and domestic abuse is so significant that the piece of clothing merits a special mention in domestic abuse legislation, then you have to provide some figures to back that up first.

I mean, if the burqa emerged in the Middle-East as a way for husbands to conceal the wounds they inflicted on their wives, then I would definitely consider it a ban.

But as it stands it is currently just part of their belief system. In fact, more than anything it is most likely an attempt at making a political statement.

The implication was made that the burqa is a direct result of the importation of Arab culture in the West. I asked Fragony​ to back this up, but he refused. Now, seeing as I'm quarter Arab (not half, mind you), is it unthinkable that this strikes me as being somewhat offensive, and as such, I really wanted to know why he thinks this is somehow an integral part of Arab culture, when in fact it was basically declared an idiotic tradition over a century ago.

I think everyone here realises that the burqa is not part of mainstream Arab culture anymore than it is part of a mainstream interpretation of the Koran/Hadiths.

The thing is though I always think in your posts that while you are obviously very well learned in the thought of the 'Muslim world', you are a bit quite to dismiss what we would consider to be the extremist element.

I mean, you say the burqa was "declared an idiotic tradition" by that Egyptian grand mufti fellow over a century ago, as if he somehow speaks for all of Sunni Islam. The thing is not all Sunni's follow him and the Wahhabi's seem to be like radical Proddies in that they put their scripture before anything else. That Sunni leader can't claim to speak for all the Sunni Muslims, to suggest so it to say that just because I'm a Protestant, whatever the Archbishop of Canterbury says reflects my views.

At the end of the day, the Wahhabi version of Islam did come out of the Arab world. And it is the dominant version of Islam today in Saudi Arabia, the heart of the Arab world. And it is a strain of Islam that exists throughout the whole (Sunni) Islamic world. Wahhabi extremists bomb Chechnya and Dagestan every day. They came second in Egypt's recent elections and did well in Tunisia as well. A group allied with al-Qaeda is the closest thing to a functioning government throughout half of Somalia. They've provided the Muhijadeen in Bosnia, Afghanistan, Kashmir etc. They are all over the Muslim world, from the Arab heartland to Indonesia.

And now, of course, this Wahhabism is popular with second generation Muslim immigrants in the developed world.

I think you are really understating the impact and prevalence of Wahhabism in the Islamic world.